[00:00.000 --> 00:04.600] This news brief brought to you by the International Newsnet. [00:04.600 --> 00:09.920] Forces loyal to Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh clashed with defected soldiers and tribesmen [00:09.920 --> 00:14.520] across the country Thursday. Violence erupted in the capital between the elite Republican [00:14.520 --> 00:20.200] Guard and General Ali Mosin Ammar's first armored division which provides protection [00:20.200 --> 00:26.040] for anti-Saleh protesters. In Ibb, south of Fanar, security forces opened fire to disperse [00:26.040 --> 00:29.960] children demonstrating against the shooting death of a 10-month-old baby. [00:29.960 --> 00:36.440] A top Palestinian official said Thursday Palestinians can't be expected to negotiate [00:36.440 --> 00:41.480] while Israel keeps expanding settlements on occupied land. Palestinians believe Israeli [00:41.480 --> 00:47.320] Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wants to use talks as a diplomatic shield but is not [00:47.320 --> 00:51.080] interested in reaching a peace deal. [00:51.080 --> 00:55.160] Christopher Doyle, an attorney defending a homeless man, alleged to be a member of the [00:55.160 --> 01:00.040] activist group Anonymous, claims that even if his client carried out a distributed denial [01:00.040 --> 01:06.760] of service attack on Santa Cruz County computers, it was simply the latest version of the sit-in. [01:06.760 --> 01:13.440] Last year Santa Cruz County passed a law making sleeping outdoors illegal. [01:13.440 --> 01:18.600] Police and prosecutors are separately examining a high-ranking officer's use of pepper spray [01:18.600 --> 01:23.160] on the number of female protesters at an Occupy Wall Street demonstration in New York [01:23.160 --> 01:28.560] Saturday. Police commissioner Raymond Kelly Wednesday criticized the protesters for their [01:28.560 --> 01:34.920] tumultuous conduct. But Kelly said the NYPD's Internal Affairs Bureau would look at the [01:34.920 --> 01:41.000] decision by Deputy Inspector Anthony Belogna to use pepper spray. In a video posted online, [01:41.000 --> 01:46.320] Belogna is seen walking up to a group of women corralled by orange netting, squirting pepper [01:46.320 --> 01:50.920] spray at them and walking away. A new video has emerged showing Belogna pepper spraying [01:50.920 --> 01:56.000] a photographer wearing a press pass. The photographer said after Belogna pepper sprayed [01:56.000 --> 02:01.440] him, he said, quote, you better get out of here and threatened arrest. A demonstration [02:01.440 --> 02:08.080] against police brutality is planned for Friday in front of the NYPD's first precinct. [02:08.080 --> 02:12.880] The UK Independent said Thursday the Iraqi government silenced his critics of corruption [02:12.880 --> 02:18.040] by removing officials who tried to prosecute racketeers and intimidating politicians and [02:18.040 --> 02:22.440] journalists. This month a prominent Iraqi journalist who had been threatened for leading [02:22.440 --> 02:27.520] anti-government protests was shot dead. There is growing anger that the ruling elite is [02:27.520 --> 02:32.360] embezzling much of the country's $2 billion a week in oil revenues, depleting funding [02:32.360 --> 02:38.360] for electricity, water, health care, housing, education and garbage collection. Transparency [02:38.360 --> 02:43.200] International reports Iraq is the fourth most corrupt country in the world. Prime Minister [02:43.200 --> 02:49.120] Muriel Maliki's government is trying to remove the parliamentary immunity of Saba al-Sadi, [02:49.120 --> 02:53.120] formerly head of the Parliamentary Committee on Integrity, so he can be arrested for making [02:53.120 --> 03:19.120] allegations against Maliki. Most Iraqis believe no job or contract is awarded without a bribe. [03:19.120 --> 03:34.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [03:34.120 --> 03:46.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [03:46.120 --> 04:01.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [04:01.120 --> 04:21.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [04:21.120 --> 04:41.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [04:41.120 --> 05:01.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [05:01.120 --> 05:21.120] The United States of America is the only country in the world that has ever had a bribe. [05:21.120 --> 05:32.120] So I'm going to read a little bit of background about Michelle Rosen and Scott Bartz. Michelle was an 8 year old girl when her father picked her up from school this very day 29 years ago. [05:32.120 --> 05:43.120] They came into the house to discover her mother, Mary Magdalene Reiner, called Lynn by all that loved her, in the state of being poisoned by cyanide-laced Tylenol. [05:43.120 --> 05:51.120] She was in the kitchen breathing heavy and fast while Michelle's grandmother was trying to get her to sit down and breathe normally. [05:51.120 --> 06:02.120] Michelle's grandmother was holding Michelle's new baby brother just six days old. After trying to control her breathing, Michelle's mother began to convulse and drop down to the kitchen floor. [06:02.120 --> 06:13.120] Michelle's father called an ambulance and sent Michelle up to her bedroom with a dog. The paramedics came. They were there for what seemed like forever to Michelle, trying their hardest to save Lynn. [06:13.120 --> 06:23.120] After an hour and 15 minutes she was pronounced clinically dead and Michelle watched out the street-facing window as the medical team took out her mother on the stretcher. [06:23.120 --> 06:33.120] Michelle had no idea that her mother had died. Michelle's father kept Lynn on live support until the next day in hopes that some life would come back. Unfortunately, she was gone. [06:33.120 --> 06:43.120] Lynn left behind four children, Dawn, nine, Michelle, eight years old, Jacob, 21, months, and Joshua, only six days old. [06:43.120 --> 06:57.120] In a new self-published book, The Tylenol Mafia, author Scott Bartz says he knows why these crimes continue to confound investigators. Authorities were steered toward an erroneous madman in the drugstore theory of the crime. [06:57.120 --> 07:12.120] A crime Bartz believes never occurred in retail stores. He says the evidence shows the culprit put the poison capsules into bottles somewhere along the repackaging and distribution links in Tylenol's supply chain. [07:12.120 --> 07:18.120] A distribution system the police did not understand and the media did not investigate. [07:18.120 --> 07:27.120] A multi-party, multifaceted distribution system closely guarded by the makers of Tylenol and Bartz's former employer, Johnson & Johnson. [07:27.120 --> 07:38.120] Scott Bartz is a stickler for details. In the book, Tylenol lot numbers, warehouses, repackaging facilities, distribution channels, and manufacturing processes get tracked and traced. [07:38.120 --> 07:45.120] Scott plays close attention to the exact terminology used by Johnson & Johnson, the FDA, and the FBI. [07:45.120 --> 07:51.120] Inconsistencies of statements are noted. What is said and not said is important. [07:51.120 --> 08:05.120] He also describes the personal and professional allegiances between key players, and he reveals allegations about the current reactivation team that, if even partially true, call the entire endeavor into question. [08:05.120 --> 08:17.120] Scott Bartz is a pharmaceutical industry insider and a whistleblower. He worked for several Johnson & Johnson companies from August 1999 until his dismissal in March 2007. [08:17.120 --> 08:30.120] The United States of America, 22 states including Illinois, and Scott Bartz are plaintiffs in an ongoing, quite TAM, and employee retaliation lawsuit against Johnson & Johnson and its subsidiaries. [08:30.120 --> 08:44.120] Scott Bartz's whistleblower suit is not related to the Tylenol murders. The complaint alleges, among other things, that the Johnson & Johnson defendants defrauded Medicaid and Medicare through price manipulation and overcharges. [08:44.120 --> 09:03.120] In the course of his regular sales analyst duties, Scott Bartz discovered various pricing errors, brought them to the attention of his superiors in an attempt to correct the situation, and, despite his positive performance, reviews and promotions, soon found himself out of a job. [09:03.120 --> 09:15.120] Scott Bartz has created two blogs focused on the pharmaceutical industry and started working on a book about the history of Johnson & Johnson. He abandoned that project in favor of an in-depth examination of the Tylenol murders. [09:15.120 --> 09:26.120] During the past three and a half years, Scott Bartz has analyzed over 8,000 documents, met with victims' family members, and talked with FBI agents and Chicago area police officers. [09:26.120 --> 09:40.120] Now the book is released, The Tylenol Mafia, Marketing, Murder, and Johnson & Johnson. The Tylenol Mafia rips away the facade of the investigation that Johnson & Johnson CEO James Burke labeled, quote, [09:40.120 --> 09:56.120] a demonstration without parallel of government and business working with the news media to help protect the public, end quote. This expose unearths the troubling details of an investigation corrupted by well-connected corporate executives and politically-motivated government officials [09:56.120 --> 10:04.120] who simply bury the truth inside a shadow legal system inaccessible to everyday Americans. [10:04.120 --> 10:19.120] Now folks, I think a more appropriate description of what happened is that it was a demonstration without parallel of government and business working with the news media to protect corporate interest by throwing out the facts at the expense of people's lives. [10:19.120 --> 10:32.120] So first we have the Lee Harvey Oswald low-nut with a gun cover story, cover-up story that has been thoroughly debunked. Then we have the Timothy McVeigh low-nut with a truck cover-up story that has also been thoroughly debunked. [10:32.120 --> 10:42.120] And now we've got the Tylenol low-nut with a box of cyanide cover-up story that is now debunked by Scott Bartz and Michelle in their new book, The Tylenol Mafia. [10:42.120 --> 10:45.120] Scott, Michelle, welcome to the show. [10:45.120 --> 10:47.120] Thank you. Thank you for having us. [10:47.120 --> 10:54.120] So I wanted to ask y'all first, how did y'all meet and come to collaborate on this book? [10:54.120 --> 10:56.120] Scott, may I? [10:56.120 --> 10:57.120] Yeah, go ahead. [10:57.120 --> 11:10.120] Okay. Well, the reactivated case a few years ago in 2009, February of 2009, when they were about to try to wrongly convict the extortionist for the Tylenol murders. [11:10.120 --> 11:17.120] Again, I had gotten an email from a friend that said, information I think you should know. [11:17.120 --> 11:24.120] And it brought me to Scott's rantings on his website, AmericanFraud.com. [11:24.120 --> 11:28.120] And I went on and I'd never heard this side of the story. [11:28.120 --> 11:33.120] So for it was 26 and a half years that I believed this lie and whatever. [11:33.120 --> 11:35.120] I went to his website. [11:35.120 --> 11:40.120] I saw that, saw all of his truth speaking. I'd never heard it this way before. [11:40.120 --> 11:44.120] And I couldn't stop reading. It was amazing. [11:44.120 --> 11:48.120] So I had contacted through the website and contacted him. [11:48.120 --> 11:51.120] And we started talking and spent almost three years now. [11:51.120 --> 11:55.120] And we've been nonstop ever since. [11:55.120 --> 12:01.120] Yeah, you know, so Michelle, you became aware of the website because the case was reactivated. [12:01.120 --> 12:02.120] Right. [12:02.120 --> 12:06.120] You know, thanks to the FBI and Illinois State Police, the case was reactivated. [12:06.120 --> 12:09.120] At that point, I thought it was just about done with the book. [12:09.120 --> 12:15.120] But with the reactivation of the case, they also helped me get several very, [12:15.120 --> 12:20.120] very interesting chapters about what's going on right now in this murder investigation. [12:20.120 --> 12:24.120] Yes, and this is a very interesting topic for me. [12:24.120 --> 12:30.120] The fact that this case has been reactivated, I watched Gary Franchi's video on this. [12:30.120 --> 12:34.120] I have a 10 minute YouTube video. I like to post it on our website. [12:34.120 --> 12:40.120] And interesting enough, folks, talking about the low nut with the box of cyanide. [12:40.120 --> 12:49.120] At first, the person who was being investigated over this, the low nut that was being investigated, [12:49.120 --> 12:52.120] so to speak, was a man named James Lewis. [12:52.120 --> 13:03.120] However, recently, the FBI has decided that they want to try to pin this on the Unabomber of all people, Ted Kaczynski. [13:03.120 --> 13:14.120] Now, why, I'm thinking, and Gary Franchi asked the question, why after all these years is the media making a big deal about this? [13:14.120 --> 13:16.120] And it just seems to me, I mean, I don't know. [13:16.120 --> 13:21.120] Call me conspiracy theorist, but I have just studied too much of this stuff, and it's becoming more and more obvious all the time. [13:21.120 --> 13:30.120] The FBI comes in and decides they want some DNA evidence, DNA samples from the Unabomber to try to pin him as being on the grass. [13:30.120 --> 13:34.120] He know that day regarding the Tylenolmer, so to speak. [13:34.120 --> 13:36.120] And now the media is making a big deal about it. [13:36.120 --> 13:38.120] I mean, don't you think that's a little odd? [13:38.120 --> 13:41.120] And what do you think prompted this? [13:41.120 --> 13:47.120] Well, you know, I'll tell you what I think prompted the reactivated investigation. [13:47.120 --> 13:56.120] Under the Freedom of Information Act, documents of historical significance are to be declassified 25 years later. [13:56.120 --> 14:02.120] So we know the case was publicly reactivated in February 2009. [14:02.120 --> 14:12.120] But what I learned and what the book details is that the case had actually been covertly reactivated two months before the 25th anniversary of the Tylenol murders, [14:12.120 --> 14:18.120] just as these documents from that investigation would have to be declassified. [14:18.120 --> 14:26.120] Now that it's an active investigation, of course, I'm unable to get any documents and nobody can get any documents. [14:26.120 --> 14:32.120] The EFOI requests I filed have been returned from the FBI and Illinois State Police. [14:32.120 --> 14:38.120] They declined my request because this is now an ongoing active investigation, they say. [14:38.120 --> 14:42.120] So they weren't able to get Jim Lewis. [14:42.120 --> 14:51.120] They were, and this is just fascinating, and you'll learn more in the book what they did to try to nail Jim Lewis as the patsy for the Tylenol murders. [14:51.120 --> 14:56.120] So they seem to have moved on now to their last patsy, Ted Kaczynski. [14:56.120 --> 15:06.120] Yeah, and it also is probably no coincidence that perhaps they figured they needed to cook up something in response to your book [15:06.120 --> 15:14.120] that had not been released at the time when they started all this, but they knew what was coming down the pike. [15:14.120 --> 15:22.120] Well, yeah, they knew very well what was coming down the pike because the FBI called me, Jim McCaffrey, Special Agent New Jersey, [15:22.120 --> 15:28.120] called me in August 2008, talked to me for 15 minutes about my theory on what really happened, [15:28.120 --> 15:38.120] which is, and I told him how I believe the tamperings occurred in the channel of distribution, even named the facility where I believe all of the cyanide-laced Tylenol was distributed. [15:38.120 --> 15:47.120] He called me a month later in September 2008, asked me the same questions, listened again for about 15 minutes, and I never heard from again. [15:47.120 --> 15:55.120] But in the fall of 2008, the case was reactivated through grand juries in Cook and DuPage counties. [15:55.120 --> 16:05.120] A new Tylenol task force was formed. This was all kept secret until 2009 when it was publicly reactivated with the search of Jim Lewis' apartment. [16:05.120 --> 16:12.120] So, shortly after the FBI talked to me, they put a task force together and got ready to publicly reactivate this thing. [16:12.120 --> 16:24.120] Incredible, and just coincidentally, it just happens to be right towards the end of the statute of limitations when they would have to make all of these documents public. [16:24.120 --> 16:29.120] And so by reactivating them, now you can't get anything before you anymore. [16:29.120 --> 16:34.120] Right, and they had actually reactivated even before they talked to me. [16:34.120 --> 16:40.120] They were carrying out this covert investigation to try to frame Jim Lewis before 25 years. [16:40.120 --> 16:48.120] All right, folks, we will be back on the other side of this break with our very special guests, Michelle Rosen and Scott Bartz. [16:48.120 --> 16:55.120] They're discussing the new book, The Tylenol Mafia, Marketing, Murder, and Johnson & Johnson. We'll be right back. 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[18:38.120 --> 18:41.120] Personal consultation is available as well. [18:41.120 --> 18:49.120] For more information, please visit ruleoflawradio.com and click on the blue Michael Merris banner or email Michael Merris at yahoo.com. [18:49.120 --> 18:57.120] That's ruleoflawradio.com or email m-i-c-h-a-e-l-m-i-r-r-a-s at yahoo.com. [18:57.120 --> 19:00.120] To learn how to stop debt collectors now. [19:27.120 --> 19:40.120] Okay folks, we are back. [19:40.120 --> 19:48.120] Very special guests, Michelle Rosen and Scott Bart, who collaborated together on this book, The Tylenol Mafia, [19:48.120 --> 19:53.120] Marketing, Murder, and Johnson & Johnson exposing what likely really happened. [19:53.120 --> 19:57.120] And there seems to be a lot of just irrefutable evidence here. [19:57.120 --> 20:07.120] The themes of the book are corporate power and influence, the shadow legal system, which we all know a lot about here on rule of law radio. [20:07.120 --> 20:11.120] We've got wrongful prosecution. We know all about that too. [20:11.120 --> 20:17.120] And of course, corrupt investigations, which of course we also know a lot about here on rule of law radio. [20:17.120 --> 20:23.120] So this is a very apropos conversation here. [20:23.120 --> 20:27.120] I've got some questions here. I'd like to ask our guest. [20:27.120 --> 20:34.120] First Scott, Michelle, can you tell us what are some of the major findings in your book? [20:34.120 --> 20:38.120] Yeah, there's basically two main categories. [20:38.120 --> 20:46.120] One having to do with the public relations campaign and the other having to do with the Tylenol killer's true modus operandi. [20:46.120 --> 20:56.120] And of course, the Johnson & Johnson's handling of the Tylenol murders has been held up for 29 years now as the gold standard of crisis management. [20:56.120 --> 21:05.120] The story is that J&J immediately took all the capsules off the market, did everything they could to protect America, [21:05.120 --> 21:12.120] and regardless of how much expense this would cost, J&J wasn't concerned. [21:12.120 --> 21:14.120] They just wanted to make sure we were safe. [21:14.120 --> 21:21.120] But the truth is that J&J did not immediately recall the Tylenol capsules. [21:21.120 --> 21:26.120] They didn't recall them until six days after the Tylenol murders. [21:26.120 --> 21:34.120] And as the book will detail with specific evidence, they never intended to recall the Tylenol capsules. [21:34.120 --> 21:44.120] And it's my view that they didn't intend to recall them because they'd already tracked down where those capsules had been poisoned [21:44.120 --> 21:52.120] and kind of had done a phantom recall and pulled the capsules out of retail stores and outlets that had received Tylenol [21:52.120 --> 21:56.120] from the distributor that handled all of the poisoned Tylenol. [21:56.120 --> 21:59.120] So it wasn't the gold standard of crisis management. [21:59.120 --> 22:06.120] They covered up information, they destroyed evidence, but it's been portrayed that way. [22:06.120 --> 22:14.120] And the other aspect, the criminal aspect, has to do with the Tylenol killer's modis operandi, [22:14.120 --> 22:18.120] which has been said from the very start again. [22:18.120 --> 22:23.120] The very first day of this investigation, they already figured out what had happened, they said, [22:23.120 --> 22:33.120] which was that some madman had gone around to stores randomly putting cyanide-lase capsules into bottles in various stores in the Chicago area. [22:33.120 --> 22:35.120] But that's not true. [22:35.120 --> 22:43.120] And some of that evidence, and that's a big part of the book, is the evidence that comes out that shows that the distribution channel [22:43.120 --> 22:45.120] is where the tamperings occurred. [22:45.120 --> 22:51.120] And Michelle, maybe you want to tell the folks where your mom's capsules came from. [22:51.120 --> 22:58.120] Well, in our research, we believe in the distribution channel, we believe that she had actually left a maternity ward [22:58.120 --> 23:09.120] centered to P.H. Hospital and gotten her 8-pack of extra shank Tylenol from the unit dose pharmacy of the hospital, [23:09.120 --> 23:14.120] which is normally what they do with every maternity, everybody that gives birth, [23:14.120 --> 23:20.120] they give them freebies and all these things and infant formula and, of course, Tylenol when you leave the hospital. [23:20.120 --> 23:32.120] So we believe that in the same chain, the hospital was the chain and not the store that they're claiming that my mother was poisoned from. [23:32.120 --> 23:41.120] My mom did go to a local grocery store, a little mom-pop place across the street from the hospital in our town, [23:41.120 --> 23:44.120] and did get regular strength Tylenol. [23:44.120 --> 23:53.120] So my mom is the only victim of, was poisoned by extra strength Tylenol in regular strength Tylenol bottles. [23:53.120 --> 23:59.120] So we believe that what she did was, you know, she came home with her big luggage back, [23:59.120 --> 24:05.120] then you used to stay in the maternity ward for five days, you didn't just go in two days, two days out, whatever, [24:05.120 --> 24:13.120] came home, unpacked her luggage and discovered that she had this extra strength Tylenol along with infant formulas [24:13.120 --> 24:22.120] and all kinds of things had taken them and two of them and then put the rest in the regular shrink bottle that she had just bought [24:22.120 --> 24:30.120] and collaborated the bottle together and then that's when we think that it happened to her and that's where we believe that it came from. [24:30.120 --> 24:41.120] And this is important because there was nothing talked about ever concerning cyanide being in regular strength Tylenol bottles, [24:41.120 --> 24:49.120] only extra strength Tylenol bottles, which again, it just blows holes in this lone nut theory because I mean, [24:49.120 --> 24:55.120] you got a lone nut, you know, prancing around from store to store, you know, contaminating bottles. [24:55.120 --> 25:01.120] Number one, why would that person only do it to Tylenol and no other brand or anything like that? [25:01.120 --> 25:04.120] And number two, why would they only hit extra strength? I mean, it just makes no sense. [25:04.120 --> 25:06.120] He wasn't biased. We know that. [25:06.120 --> 25:16.120] I mean, I can't believe it. The fact that my mother bought regular strength Tylenol and that there's six capsules in it, [25:16.120 --> 25:26.120] she took two, she had eight. She took two, she's dead. There's six more left and those four out of the six are still tainted. [25:26.120 --> 25:33.120] And why my mom, if those really came in a regular strength Tylenol bottle, if that really came to her that way, [25:33.120 --> 25:40.120] if she bought those off the store in its regular strength Tylenol, why she would have taken some oddly red and white capsules, [25:40.120 --> 25:45.120] you know, that don't match at all with the grain white capsules that are regular strength versus extra strength, [25:45.120 --> 25:50.120] she must have known. She must have put those in there. She must have done that. [25:50.120 --> 25:57.120] But to look at this as a, what investigators call, and that's what the investigators have told me, is a sore thumb. [25:57.120 --> 26:03.120] This is a sore thumb. This is totally odd that these are in here. She must have been poisoned. [26:03.120 --> 26:08.120] Instead of a smoking gun, which Scott and I see as, wait, this is how this works. [26:08.120 --> 26:12.120] She left the hospital, which is in the same chain of distribution as all the rest. [26:12.120 --> 26:20.120] This grocery store that she bought the regular strength Tylenol that was not, it works out just right that she would have done it that way. [26:20.120 --> 26:31.120] And what's an important aspect is that when they learned about these poisoning, they were, J&J's first, they sent out 500,000 faxes to hospitals and retailers, [26:31.120 --> 26:38.120] warning them that there were some extra strength Tylenol capsules that were poisoned in the Chicago area only. [26:38.120 --> 26:44.120] The FDA warned the public, stay away from only extra strength capsules. Others are safe. [26:44.120 --> 26:52.120] There was message time after time warning people only of extra strength capsules, not regular strength capsules. [26:52.120 --> 27:03.120] Now, if you believe that this poisonings occurred in the retail stores, why would you think that this mad killer would only pick on extra strength capsules and not regular strength capsules? [27:03.120 --> 27:14.120] And in fact, they had a bottle of regular strength capsules, Lynn Reiner's bottle, that had six red and white extra strength capsules, four of which contained cyanide. [27:14.120 --> 27:22.120] But Lynn Reiner had took those out of her unit dose package she got at the hospital, took two of them, put four others in the bottle. [27:22.120 --> 27:30.120] They didn't come from the store. And they came from the unit dose pharmacy, which was a closed-door pharmacy inaccessible to the patients or to the public. [27:30.120 --> 27:42.120] And that hospital had received those cyanide-laced Tylenol capsules, I believe, from the same distribution center that distributed the cyanide-laced Tylenol capsules to the local retail stores. [27:42.120 --> 28:02.120] Now, Lynn, I'm sorry, Lynn, Michelle, isn't it true that they were actually investigating your father at one point saying, like you're talking about the sore thumb and the red pills are in the bottle with the gray pills, and that they're trying to pin the whole thing on your dad now? [28:02.120 --> 28:08.120] And instead of treating this as a smoking gun, like we were just discussing, what happened with you and with your father? [28:08.120 --> 28:17.120] The sore thumb instead of the smoking gun? You know what? I love the way that Scott tells this. He tells this really good, so let's not tell this one. [28:17.120 --> 28:28.120] And this was what the mistake they made early on, is they misinterpreted. They saw these red and white capsules in that bottle, and they did stick out like a sore thumb. [28:28.120 --> 28:38.120] But initially, I'll give them credit, they probably misinterpreted that evidence, and so immediately they start looking at relatives. Now, Ed Ryder wasn't the only relative that was targeted. [28:38.120 --> 28:47.120] Several of the victims' relatives were targeted as prime suspects and were really pressured to take lie detector tests to get off their hook. [28:47.120 --> 29:00.120] And so for the first 25 days of this investigation, and it's clear from the information available, from newspaper clippings and from interviews with these primary suspects, [29:00.120 --> 29:10.120] that the FBI and Illinois State Police had targeted one man early on, a couple weeks into the investigation, they added another man to this mix, [29:10.120 --> 29:20.120] and on the 25th day of the investigation, it was announced in the Chicago Sun Times and on NBC News that officials were close to solving this case, [29:20.120 --> 29:33.120] that the Tylenol murders were the work of a conspiracy committed by two men. One, Roger Arnold, the co-conspirator, and the other, a relative of one of the victims. [29:33.120 --> 29:42.120] So they're trying to turn it around on the victims and the victims' families now, instead of doing a proper investigation and chasing it down to the real perp. [29:42.120 --> 29:43.120] Yes. [29:43.120 --> 29:53.120] Okay, all right, folks, we're going to break. We will be right back on the other side of this break. This is the Rule of Law, RuleofLawRadio.com, Randy Kelton, Eddie Craig, [29:53.120 --> 29:59.120] and Deborah Stevens. We're here with Michelle Rose and Scott Barnes. We'll be right back. [29:59.120 --> 30:05.120] This is Building 7, a 47-story skyscraper that fell on the afternoon of September 11th. [30:05.120 --> 30:12.120] The government says the fire brought it down. However, 1,500 architects and engineers have concluded it was a controlled demolition. [30:12.120 --> 30:17.120] Over 6,000 of my fellow service members have given their lives, and thousands of my fellow first responders have died. [30:17.120 --> 30:19.120] I'm not a conspiracy theorist. [30:19.120 --> 30:20.120] I'm a structural engineer. [30:20.120 --> 30:21.120] I'm a New York City correction officer. [30:21.120 --> 30:22.120] I'm an Air Force pilot. [30:22.120 --> 30:24.120] I'm a father who lost his son. [30:24.120 --> 30:26.120] We're Americans, and we deserve the truth. [30:26.120 --> 30:32.120] Go to RememberBuilding7.org today. [30:32.120 --> 30:36.120] Ah, that new car smell. [30:36.120 --> 30:38.120] Well, maybe it's not so great after all. [30:38.120 --> 30:41.120] In fact, it could be downright bad for your health. [30:41.120 --> 30:46.120] I'm Dr. Catherine Albright, and I'll be right back to tell you why it stinks. [30:46.120 --> 30:51.120] Privacy is under attack. When you give up data about yourself, you'll never get it back again. [30:51.120 --> 30:56.120] And once your privacy is gone, you'll find your freedoms will start to vanish too. [30:56.120 --> 30:58.120] So protect your rights. [30:58.120 --> 31:01.120] Say no to surveillance and keep your information to yourself. [31:01.120 --> 31:04.120] Privacy, it's worth hanging on to. [31:04.120 --> 31:11.120] This public service announcement is brought to you by StartPage.com, the private search engine alternative to Google, Yahoo, and Bing. [31:11.120 --> 31:14.120] Start over with StartPage. [31:14.120 --> 31:22.120] There's nothing quite like that new car smell, but it turns out it's actually the smell of some very toxic chemicals. [31:22.120 --> 31:30.120] The 250 pounds of plastic, adhesive, and foam in every new car release toxic benzene, acetone, and formaldehyde. [31:30.120 --> 31:36.120] These chemicals can cause cancer and are linked to birth defects, impaired learning, and premature births. [31:36.120 --> 31:43.120] One recent study looked at the air inside of six new cars and found more than 20 times the safe amount of those chemicals. [31:43.120 --> 31:50.120] Fortunately, they decay at the rate of about 20% a week, reaching normal indoor air quality levels in about six months. [31:50.120 --> 31:54.120] So buy your next car used, or at least roll down the windows. [31:54.120 --> 32:14.120] I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht, more news and information at CatherineAlbrecht.com. [32:24.120 --> 32:46.120] When you're gonna stop abuse, you'll have power. [32:46.120 --> 33:02.120] Okay, folks, we're back. We're discussing these Tylenol murders, exposing, unraveling the real story. [33:02.120 --> 33:07.120] Alright, so let's continue to talk about some of these major findings in the book. [33:07.120 --> 33:20.120] If you would please continue on some of these findings and the investigation, how it started, and how oddly enough they're reopening the investigation against this James Lewis guy, [33:20.120 --> 33:24.120] when originally he was not one of the original suspects and they were coming out. [33:24.120 --> 33:28.120] Something about they had come out within two days saying they knew the who done it. [33:28.120 --> 33:41.120] To me, this just is ridiculous. It reminds me the exact same MO of the Timothy McVeigh and the Lee Harvey Oswald issue situation. [33:41.120 --> 33:50.120] In two days, they knew what gun it was and where he had gotten the gun, and they had managed to chase this down in two days on a weekend with no internet and no computers. [33:50.120 --> 33:56.120] Yeah, right. I don't think so. So this is the same thing. So Scott, can you please expand? [33:56.120 --> 34:04.120] Yeah, yeah, right. It was the same thing. So in the first day, they say it's some random nut job, but that's never how they investigated it. [34:04.120 --> 34:13.120] They had targeted someone immediately as a suspect, and instead of following the evidence, they tried to fabricate a case to get their target. [34:13.120 --> 34:21.120] And in fact, what they did with this evidence, the most important evidence they had was the Tylenol capsules that were in stores and outlets, [34:21.120 --> 34:30.120] because they needed to inspect all of those capsules, find everything that had cyanide, find out where they'd gone through the distribution channel, [34:30.120 --> 34:36.120] and if they had done that, they would attract it all the way back to one central distribution center. [34:36.120 --> 34:43.120] But instead of inspecting those capsules, they inspected about 1% of the capsules that were in the marketplace. [34:43.120 --> 34:50.120] But the 99% of those capsules were turned over to Johnson and Johnson and destroyed. [34:50.120 --> 34:58.120] None of the capsules in the stores were inspected except for a very, very small number that Chicago authorities inspected, [34:58.120 --> 35:05.120] and none of the capsules in the outlets, distribution outlets in the Chicago area were inspected. [35:05.120 --> 35:08.120] So the evidence was up? [35:08.120 --> 35:19.120] Yeah, so they turned over all the capsules back to Johnson and Johnson, the government does, instead of seizing them and holding them for evidence. [35:19.120 --> 35:27.120] That's right. On the very first day, so Johnson and Johnson learned about these poisonings on Thursday morning, September 30th. [35:27.120 --> 35:33.120] That afternoon, a J&J official called the Illinois Attorney's General Office and told them, [35:33.120 --> 35:39.120] don't worry about the expense of collecting the capsules, Johnson and Johnson will take care of that. [35:39.120 --> 35:49.120] So together, J&J and Illinois State Police and the FBI agreed to turn any capsules, any of the capsules that local residents turned into the local police [35:49.120 --> 35:54.120] were shipped to Johnson and Johnson Distribution Center in Lamont, Illinois. [35:54.120 --> 36:01.120] And then the capsules that were in the stores, some were selectively taken out of there, I believe, from Johnson and Johnson. [36:01.120 --> 36:08.120] Most just sat in the back rooms until a week later when Johnson and Johnson then did finally recall all of the capsules. [36:08.120 --> 36:11.120] Then they picked them up and destroyed them all. [36:11.120 --> 36:18.120] But so during all of this, this is not how it's been reported when this case is reactivated. [36:18.120 --> 36:25.120] The old same old officials from 1982 who were spokespersons in the case back then and were in charge of the investigation back then, [36:25.120 --> 36:30.120] they come out now and say, Jim Lewis, he was always our prime suspect. [36:30.120 --> 36:38.120] And now we're searching this house, Dan Webb, who was the U.S. Attorney in Illinois in 1982, came out and said, [36:38.120 --> 36:44.120] you know, since they are searching Jim Lewis's apartment, that means there must be evidence of a crime there. [36:44.120 --> 36:52.120] And what did those FBI officials, and by the way, the FBI is incredibly involved in this reactivated investigation, [36:52.120 --> 36:56.120] but the Tylenol murders were not a federal crime. [36:56.120 --> 37:04.120] Tampering was not a federal crime in 1982, and the murders fell under the jurisdiction of the state of Illinois. [37:04.120 --> 37:11.120] But the FBI was the primary leader in going out to search Jim Lewis's apartment where they found socks and pants [37:11.120 --> 37:17.120] and some of his writings and an Apple computer, none of which existed in the 1980s. [37:17.120 --> 37:23.120] So how could they be evidence of the 1982 Tylenol murder, and they took him away? [37:23.120 --> 37:27.120] And so Jim Lewis has never been a legitimate suspect. [37:27.120 --> 37:34.120] Now he got himself involved because he had lived in Chicago for about a year, up until September 3rd, [37:34.120 --> 37:37.120] when he and his wife moved to New York City. [37:37.120 --> 37:44.120] There was some bad blood between Lewis and his wife's former boss who had run a company that went bankrupt [37:44.120 --> 37:48.120] and stiffed all of the employees, their last paychecks, they bounced. [37:48.120 --> 37:55.120] And so Jim, to kind of put some pressure on this guy, his wife's former boss, wrote a letter [37:55.120 --> 38:02.120] and sent it to J&J demanding $1 million to be deposited in this business count [38:02.120 --> 38:06.120] of his wife's former boss for the killings to stop. [38:06.120 --> 38:11.120] He never intended, the account had been closed, he had no access to it, [38:11.120 --> 38:18.120] he never intended to collect the million dollars, even Assistant U.S. Attorney General at the time, Jerry Margolis, [38:18.120 --> 38:24.120] said that Lewis never intended to collect the money, he just wanted to put the pressure on Leigh Ann's boss. [38:24.120 --> 38:30.120] So he was never a suspect, but when they ran out of suspects, when their conspiracy theory fell apart, [38:30.120 --> 38:33.120] 25 days into the investigation, they had nothing. [38:33.120 --> 38:37.120] All right, so what was their original conspiracy theory? [38:37.120 --> 38:39.120] Who were they trying to pin it on? [38:39.120 --> 38:45.120] And I don't want to give away everything, I mean, it's obvious we know Ed was a suspect, Ed Reiner, [38:45.120 --> 38:48.120] one of the victim's relatives, there were other relatives who were suspects too, [38:48.120 --> 38:55.120] but it was a relative of one of the victims who was the prime suspect, and the FBI and ISP, [38:55.120 --> 39:00.120] Illinois State Police were floating this theory out to NBC in the Chicago Sun Times [39:00.120 --> 39:08.120] that the relative of a victim and Roger Arnold had conspired to commit premeditated murder [39:08.120 --> 39:13.120] of one of the victims, plant bottles in several other stores in the Chicago area, [39:13.120 --> 39:19.120] so other people would buy them and die, and it would look like the premeditated murder, [39:19.120 --> 39:25.120] supposed premeditated murder, was just one of these random murders committed by a madman. [39:25.120 --> 39:26.120] Oh, brother. [39:26.120 --> 39:33.120] But it's even a bizarre theory, but how could you even get the timing right that other people would die? [39:33.120 --> 39:40.120] And it was sheer luck that they even realized when they did that people were dying from cyanide poisoning. [39:40.120 --> 39:48.120] It was the fact that the Januses, three Janus family members all died from taking Tylenol out of the same bottle [39:48.120 --> 39:55.120] with a matter of a few hours, and so that immediately led local emergency workers to suspect [39:55.120 --> 39:57.120] that something was going on with the Tylenol. [39:57.120 --> 40:03.120] Then they tied it in and realized that the little girl, 12-year-old Mary Kellerman had also taken Tylenol [40:03.120 --> 40:08.120] and died of an unexplained death that morning, and then they quickly, these emergency workers, [40:08.120 --> 40:12.120] realized, figured out what was going on, that Tylenol had been filled with cyanide. [40:12.120 --> 40:17.120] But if not for those Januses, they would never have found on that day anyway [40:17.120 --> 40:20.120] that people were dying from cyanide-laced Tylenol. [40:20.120 --> 40:31.120] Okay, so this goes to show that all this tamper-resistant packaging, brouhaha, is basically all for naught [40:31.120 --> 40:35.120] because something like this can happen at the distribution center. [40:35.120 --> 40:41.120] Of any medication, of any pharmaceutical, of any food for that matter, a box of cereal, [40:41.120 --> 40:43.120] so what are you going to do? [40:43.120 --> 40:48.120] We can't live our lives in fear, but it just goes to show that these lone nut theories, [40:48.120 --> 40:52.120] it's just silliness, it's just preposterous. [40:52.120 --> 40:55.120] I can't believe they managed to ever pull that off on the public anyway. [40:55.120 --> 41:01.120] Now, speaking of the distribution centers, can y'all please explain, [41:01.120 --> 41:08.120] or at least go over some of the evidence that you found that shows that this did happen [41:08.120 --> 41:10.120] at the distribution center? [41:10.120 --> 41:14.120] Yeah, and I don't want to get, because it's hard. [41:14.120 --> 41:19.120] You can get into the minutiae here, and it gets a little confusing, [41:19.120 --> 41:21.120] and it's laid out pretty clearly in the book. [41:21.120 --> 41:27.120] But there were certain aspects regarding how much Tylenol was actually in the distribution channel. [41:27.120 --> 41:30.120] And this information came from Johnson & Johnson. [41:30.120 --> 41:37.120] And the amount of Tylenol that was in the distribution center was far too much to be just in bottles. [41:37.120 --> 41:43.120] But what was really in was big fiber drums of bulk Tylenol. [41:43.120 --> 41:48.120] Because J&J and the FDA wanted people to believe that the Tylenol was shipped, [41:48.120 --> 41:52.120] packaged, and bottled right at the McNeil manufacturing plant, [41:52.120 --> 41:56.120] and then shipped already bottled and packaged right to the retail stores. [41:56.120 --> 41:58.120] But that's not at all what happened. [41:58.120 --> 42:03.120] I mean, some Tylenol was bottled and packaged at McNeil manufacturing plant, [42:03.120 --> 42:09.120] but a lot of it was put in bulk fiber drums and shipped to repackaging facilities all over the country, [42:09.120 --> 42:11.120] where it was bottled. [42:11.120 --> 42:15.120] And that is what I believe happened with this in this case, [42:15.120 --> 42:19.120] is that bulk Tylenol was shipped to an Illinois repackaging facility where it was bottled, [42:19.120 --> 42:24.120] and that's where the Tylenol killer took some of these capsules apart, [42:24.120 --> 42:28.120] filled them with cyanide, and dumped a few handfuls in at a time, [42:28.120 --> 42:35.120] and over a period of time, because the capsules had deteriorated to different degrees, [42:35.120 --> 42:38.120] depending on how long the cyanide was in. [42:38.120 --> 42:45.120] So cyanide, because it's typically moist, will cause capsules to degrade and show signs of corrosion. [42:45.120 --> 42:52.120] The cyanide-laced Tylenol capsules found in Chicago a day or two after the murders, [42:52.120 --> 42:59.120] some showed no signs of corrosion, and some showed minimal signs and some a little more corrosion. [42:59.120 --> 43:05.120] So it's an indication that this killer had been dumping handfuls of capsules [43:05.120 --> 43:10.120] in bottling production lines at different times, and that's why the corrosion varied. [43:10.120 --> 43:15.120] And that's also why you find one bottle that had just two poison capsules in, [43:15.120 --> 43:20.120] a couple had five, one had six poison capsules, one had 12 poison capsules. [43:20.120 --> 43:25.120] So when you throw a bunch of handfuls into bottling production line, they mix up. [43:25.120 --> 43:31.120] Some bottles won't have any poison capsules, some will have one, some will have more. [43:31.120 --> 43:33.120] Very interesting information. [43:33.120 --> 43:40.120] All right, folks, we'll be right back after this break with our special guests, Michelle Rosen and Scott Bart. [43:40.120 --> 43:45.120] They're discussing the evidence that they have presented in the new book, [43:45.120 --> 43:48.120] The Tylenol Mafia, Marketing, Murder, and Johnson & Johnson. [43:48.120 --> 43:50.120] We'll be right back after this break. [43:50.120 --> 43:57.120] The Oakland City bombing, top ten reasons to question the official story. [43:57.120 --> 44:01.120] Reason number two, why was the ATF AWOL? [44:01.120 --> 44:04.120] Paramedic Tiffany Bible, who's on the scene within five minutes, [44:04.120 --> 44:09.120] has stated in an affidavit that agents of the Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms told her [44:09.120 --> 44:11.120] that they were not in the opposite of one. [44:11.120 --> 44:15.120] He and Tiffany Bible, who's on the scene within five minutes, [44:15.120 --> 44:20.120] and the Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms told her that they were not in the opposite of one. [44:20.120 --> 44:23.120] EMT Catherine Mallant also overheard one agent say to another, [44:23.120 --> 44:27.120] close, is that why we got the page to not come in today, end quote. [44:27.120 --> 44:31.120] Bruce Shaw, as interviewed on KSOLAR TV, was also told by ATF agents [44:31.120 --> 44:34.120] that they had been paid to not come into work. [44:34.120 --> 44:39.120] The ATF initially denied these claims, and now variously claim that one of their agents [44:39.120 --> 44:42.120] was in a free falling elevator, which has been disproven, [44:42.120 --> 44:46.120] that they had been in an all night stick out, or that they had been at a golf tournament. [44:46.120 --> 44:51.120] As they try to sort out their lies, all we want to know is, did the ATF receive a warning, [44:51.120 --> 44:56.120] and if so, why did they not pass it on to others and memorials? [44:56.120 --> 45:23.120] For more information, go to okcfoundmentruth.com. [45:26.120 --> 45:30.120] The ATF is a free, free and accessible service. [45:30.120 --> 45:35.120] We offer free shipping on orders over $95 in the U.S. [45:35.120 --> 45:41.120] Visit the ATF at www.hempusa.org [45:41.120 --> 45:47.120] or call 908-6912-608. [45:47.120 --> 45:59.120] That's 908-6912-608. See what our powder, seeds and oil can do for you at hempusa.org. [45:59.120 --> 46:22.120] Music playing [46:22.120 --> 46:29.120] Okay, folks, we are back. This is the Rule of Law, ruleoflawradio.com. I'm Deborah Stevens, [46:29.120 --> 46:35.120] here with Eddie Craig. Randy has the night off, and we are discussing the Tylenol murders [46:35.120 --> 46:38.120] with our very special guest, Michelle Rosen and Scott Bart. [46:38.120 --> 46:44.120] The new book that has just been released that Michelle assisted Scott with, the Tylenol murders, [46:44.120 --> 46:49.120] I'm sorry, the Tylenol mafia murder, marketing murder in Johnson & Johnson. [46:49.120 --> 46:53.120] I'll tell you what, I'm never buying another Johnson & Johnson product again. [46:53.120 --> 46:56.120] I don't even like Tylenol anyway. I used something else. [46:56.120 --> 47:01.120] Okay, so what evidence have the authorities presented? [47:01.120 --> 47:07.120] What have they presented to support their claim that tamperings occurred in the retail stores? [47:07.120 --> 47:16.120] What kind of bogus lean to? What kind of shady evidence that we can probably poke a million holes through? [47:16.120 --> 47:19.120] What have they presented here? [47:19.120 --> 47:24.120] Yeah, well, it's pretty easy to poke holes, because there's only one piece that they've presented to support their view. [47:24.120 --> 47:29.120] I mean, they've never found any evidence at the retail stores. [47:29.120 --> 47:36.120] Some of these stores did have security cameras. They never spotted someone suspicious handling the capsules. [47:36.120 --> 47:45.120] But what they claimed is that they had basically the theory of the super corrosiveness of cyanide. [47:45.120 --> 47:50.120] Cyanide is a very corrosive chemical that would heat through the capsules very quickly. [47:50.120 --> 47:56.120] Now, cyanide, it's not really the cyanide that eats through the capsules. It's the water content. [47:56.120 --> 48:03.120] And so, in fact, years later, the FDA did an analysis of cyanide-based Tylenol capsules with low water content [48:03.120 --> 48:08.120] and found that they would show no signs of corrosion for months, maybe years. [48:08.120 --> 48:14.120] But in 1982, they inspected these Tylenol capsules one day after the murders. [48:14.120 --> 48:18.120] Now, as I said before, some didn't show signs of corrosion, but some did. [48:18.120 --> 48:24.120] They were swollen and discolored, and they said that was a result of the cyanide. [48:24.120 --> 48:35.120] And so, they would have completely deteriorated very quickly if they had been tampered with earlier in the channel of distribution. [48:35.120 --> 48:43.120] So the theory they put forth was that one day before the murders, the Tylenol killer went around to the stores, planted the capsules, [48:43.120 --> 48:51.120] and so one day later, the people died, and then the capsules were already showing signs of corrosion by then. [48:51.120 --> 48:58.120] So their theory was it would have taken just a couple of days for these capsules to show a mass of corrosion. [48:58.120 --> 49:00.120] But that's not the case. [49:00.120 --> 49:11.120] In Robert Stein, the medical director of Cook County Medical Examiner at the time said that it could have taken days [49:11.120 --> 49:17.120] and even up to ten days or more for these cyanide list capsules to show signs of corrosion. [49:17.120 --> 49:24.120] So what he did was on the very first day that he got a hold of these capsules, he got some new Tylenol capsules, [49:24.120 --> 49:31.120] put some of the cyanide in them, and then put them in a bottle and checked them every day to see if they started showing signs of corrosion. [49:31.120 --> 49:36.120] Showed no signs of corrosion after two days, three days. [49:36.120 --> 49:45.120] Finally, ten days later, Robert Stein comes out and says, hey, these capsules, they don't corrode in just a few days. [49:45.120 --> 49:50.120] The tamperance could have occurred in the distribution channel or at the manufacturing plant. [49:50.120 --> 50:01.120] So one of their own authorities debunked that myth that the capsules had to have been poisoned in the retail stores one day before the murders. [50:01.120 --> 50:05.120] Total ramshackle evidence, if I may say so. [50:05.120 --> 50:12.120] So where did this Inspector Clouseau investigation get off track here? [50:12.120 --> 50:21.120] Yeah, well, Michelle, you know, I think Officer Watkins kind of said it pretty good when you talked to him in 2009. [50:21.120 --> 50:22.120] You know what I'm talking about? [50:22.120 --> 50:26.120] What he said about those red and white capsules in your mom's bottle? [50:26.120 --> 50:28.120] I'm sticking out like a sore thumb. [50:28.120 --> 50:29.120] Yeah. [50:29.120 --> 50:31.120] Yeah. [50:31.120 --> 50:33.120] No, go ahead. [50:33.120 --> 50:36.120] So that's where it got off track. [50:36.120 --> 50:44.120] And I don't want to get into it here because I don't want to keep the whole mystery away, but it came up with a theory that was completely wrong, [50:44.120 --> 50:53.120] and it was really a theory that was designed to target and fabricate a case against their chosen suspect. [50:53.120 --> 50:58.120] It really didn't make sense, this theory, and that's why it fell apart. [50:58.120 --> 51:02.120] And so that's where it got off the track, and that was on day one. [51:02.120 --> 51:09.120] To exasperate the matter, they threw all the capsules away, gave them to Jocelyn and Jocelyn, and they were destroyed. [51:09.120 --> 51:15.120] So even at the point where sometimes they must have realized, you know what, we're obviously off track. [51:15.120 --> 51:16.120] Okay. [51:16.120 --> 51:17.120] The evidence was gone. [51:17.120 --> 51:19.120] Okay, so let me ask you this, Scott. [51:19.120 --> 51:22.120] You had mentioned earlier that the FBI had gotten involved. [51:22.120 --> 51:34.120] At what point did the FBI get involved, and the reason I'm asking is because I want to see if I can make a correlation here to, like, perhaps the FBI, like, controlling the investigation of the local police or something, [51:34.120 --> 51:36.120] as what happened with the Oklahoma City bombing. [51:36.120 --> 51:38.120] So when did the FBI get involved? [51:38.120 --> 51:44.120] Did things seem to change in the investigation once the FBI got involved, or were they just there from the get-go? [51:44.120 --> 51:51.120] They were there from the get-go, but they are clearly in charge, and they were clearly in charge of getting this case reactivated. [51:51.120 --> 51:59.120] And of course, they had no authority to get it reactivated, but they'd been doing a covert investigation before it was publicly reactivated. [51:59.120 --> 52:02.120] But it's clear to me that the FBI was in charge. [52:02.120 --> 52:14.120] And I did talk to a local Chicago detective who had worked on this case, and there were issues with jurisdiction mentioned by a few officers working on this case. [52:14.120 --> 52:21.120] And the Chicago police believed one thing, the FBI believed another, and the Illinois State Police were backing the FBI. [52:21.120 --> 52:33.120] So those groups dictated how this case was investigated, and they determined very early on that they were not going to investigate the distribution channel. [52:33.120 --> 52:35.120] Oh, gosh. [52:35.120 --> 52:46.120] Okay, so you just mentioned that this investigation was reactivated by the FBI. I'm assuming this is the reactivation that happened in February of 2007. [52:46.120 --> 52:57.120] Do they, does the FBI or does the locals or state of public servants, do they have any new evidence in this case at all? [52:57.120 --> 53:00.120] No. No one knew evidence at all. [53:00.120 --> 53:10.120] And you'll be very clear when this case is presented in the book. It's a fascinating story, this covert investigation they carried out against James Lewis. [53:10.120 --> 53:18.120] And they said they all reactivated the case because of tips that came out after the 25th anniversary. [53:18.120 --> 53:25.120] In other words, stories generated at the 25th anniversary led people to turn in some tips to the FBI. [53:25.120 --> 53:30.120] And the other reason they said was because of advances in DNA evidence. [53:30.120 --> 53:40.120] But as I now know, and as the readers of the Talanel Mafia will soon know, is that the investigation was reactivated before the 25th anniversary covertly. [53:40.120 --> 53:48.120] So this idea that they got new tips, and that was while they reactivated, is not true. [53:48.120 --> 53:57.120] And what led them to reactivate it was their desire from before the 25th anniversary to keep documents hidden from FOIA requests. [53:57.120 --> 54:00.120] And the other issue, DNA evidence. [54:00.120 --> 54:16.120] The DNA, the capsules that were in the bottles, the poison cyanide lace capsules and all the other capsules in the bottles that they recovered from the victims' families were handled by lab workers, their handed lab workers. [54:16.120 --> 54:27.120] They poured the capsules out, gave plenty of videos showing them pouring capsules out from hand to hand, pouring them back in, handling the bottles to take pictures and to get videos for the news teams. [54:27.120 --> 54:29.120] Even reporters were holding them. [54:29.120 --> 54:33.120] Any DNA evidence was contaminated back then. [54:33.120 --> 54:39.120] Further, DNA profiling or typing wasn't invented until two years later. [54:39.120 --> 54:43.120] It wasn't used commercially until 1986. [54:43.120 --> 54:50.120] And why now, in 2007, did they decide they need to test DNA? [54:50.120 --> 54:52.120] They could have done it 10 years earlier. [54:52.120 --> 54:57.120] There have been advances in the technology, but it's still basically the same process. [54:57.120 --> 55:12.120] So what they did after reactivating the case in 2009, then Joe Burkett, the state's attorney in DuPage County in 2009 and 2010, got a certificate, got a judge in 2006. [55:12.120 --> 55:32.120] And Joe Burkett got a judge in the 18th Circuit Court in Illinois to issue a certificate of materiality so he could collect DNA samples from their who passed the Jim Lewis and his wife to compare, supposedly, to DNA evidence they had from the investigation in 1982. [55:32.120 --> 55:38.120] Of course, they collected DNA evidence and fingerprints from Jim Lewis on numerous occasions. [55:38.120 --> 55:40.120] This is just ridiculous. [55:40.120 --> 55:48.120] I mean, it's such an obvious cover-up, every step of the way, and fabrication of evidence, and phony evidence. [55:48.120 --> 55:54.120] And it's just another situation of where they decide to cook up a story. [55:54.120 --> 56:09.120] The public servants decide to cook up a story, and they only will consider evidence and even go to the point of even trying to fabricate evidence to support the story that they want put out instead of looking legitimately [56:09.120 --> 56:13.120] at the evidence and following leads to come to a conclusion. [56:13.120 --> 56:15.120] That's how you solve a problem. [56:15.120 --> 56:19.120] You look at the evidence, you look at the issues, and then you deduce. [56:19.120 --> 56:23.120] That's why it's called deduction, to deduce the conclusion. [56:23.120 --> 56:27.120] A, then B, then the conclusion is C, et cetera. [56:27.120 --> 56:38.120] No, but they start off, they put the car before the horse, they start off with a story, and then they work backwards from there to try to cook up, you know, the pieces to fit the puzzle the way they want them. [56:38.120 --> 56:40.120] That's what it looks like to me. [56:40.120 --> 56:44.120] Yeah, and, you know, that's a pretty common practice at the FBI. [56:44.120 --> 56:46.120] They've done it time and time again. [56:46.120 --> 56:52.120] You know, look at Richard Joule, the hero in the Atlantic bombing that saved lives. [56:52.120 --> 56:54.120] The FBI made him a suspect. [56:54.120 --> 56:57.120] Stephen Hadfield and the anthrax attacks. [56:57.120 --> 57:02.120] They picked him, and then they had to pay him $5 million for Ron Lee accusing him. [57:02.120 --> 57:06.120] And there's example after example, and this is what they did in 1982. [57:06.120 --> 57:09.120] They picked their suspect, and they decided to go after him. [57:09.120 --> 57:23.120] In fact, they went after him, and there's very, very compelling evidence that shows local authorities planted evidence that they were going to use to help them convict their original patsy for these Tylenometers. [57:23.120 --> 57:28.120] But something went wrong with that plan, and so they had to abort it. [57:28.120 --> 57:32.120] And that's why they never went through with this conspiracy theory. [57:32.120 --> 57:40.120] On October 25th, it looked like they were one day away from arresting two men and charging them with the Tylenol murders. [57:40.120 --> 57:46.120] But then, their planted evidence, it fell apart, and that'll explain how that fell apart in the book. [57:46.120 --> 57:50.120] And all of a sudden, this conspiracy theory, it just went away. [57:50.120 --> 57:52.120] The reporters never mentioned it again. [57:52.120 --> 57:55.120] They never said, hey, you know, I'm sorry, we falsely accused these people. [57:55.120 --> 57:57.120] It just went away. [57:57.120 --> 58:05.120] When this case was reactivated in 2007 or in 2009, I'm sorry, you never hear about this. [58:05.120 --> 58:08.120] Okay, and now they're trying to blame it on the unabombers. [58:08.120 --> 58:11.120] So I don't know if we have time to answer this now. [58:11.120 --> 58:13.120] I mean, how ridiculous can you get? [58:13.120 --> 58:19.120] I mean, who are they going to blame it on next, the Easter Bunny? [58:19.120 --> 58:20.120] I mean, come on. [58:20.120 --> 58:21.120] Okay. [58:21.120 --> 58:23.120] All right, folks, just stay right there. [58:23.120 --> 58:25.120] We appreciate you coming on tonight. [58:25.120 --> 58:29.120] When we get back, we've got more questions for our guests. [58:29.120 --> 58:38.120] We're going to talk about where does the reactivated Inspector Clouseau investigation stand now and other pertinent questions. [58:38.120 --> 58:41.120] So folks, we're going to open up the phone lines later this hour. [58:41.120 --> 58:45.120] If you have any questions for our guests, line them up now. [58:45.120 --> 58:49.120] And then you can call in later in the show, 512-646-1984. [58:49.120 --> 58:56.120] We'll be right back after the top of the hour break. [59:19.120 --> 59:23.120] First, this new translation is extremely faithful and accurate. [59:23.120 --> 59:28.120] But the real story is the more than 9,000 explanatory footnotes. [59:28.120 --> 59:32.120] Difficult and profound passages are opened up in a marvelous way, [59:32.120 --> 59:38.120] providing an entrance into the riches of the word beyond which you've ever experienced before. [59:38.120 --> 59:43.120] Bibles for America would like to give you a free recovery version simply for the asking. [59:43.120 --> 59:53.120] This comprehensive yet compact study Bible is yours just by calling us toll free at 1-888-551-0102 [59:53.120 --> 59:57.120] or by ordering online at freestudybible.com. [59:57.120 --> 01:00:00.120] That's freestudybible.com. [01:00:00.120 --> 01:00:04.120] This news brief brought to you by the International Newsnet. [01:00:04.120 --> 01:00:09.120] Former IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Cahn appeared at a French police station Thursday [01:00:09.120 --> 01:00:16.120] for a face-to-face meeting with Tristan Benon, the French writer who was accused him of a 2003 rape attempt. [01:00:16.120 --> 01:00:21.120] Benon first made her allegations in 2007, but only brought them to magistrates [01:00:21.120 --> 01:00:27.120] after a maid at a New York hotel accused Strauss-Cahn of sexual assault in May. [01:00:27.120 --> 01:00:32.120] The U.S. is looking at building fences along the border with Canada. [01:00:32.120 --> 01:00:37.120] The U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency has proposed the use of, quote, [01:00:37.120 --> 01:00:44.120] policing and other barriers for trouble spots where passage of cross-border violators is difficult to control. [01:00:44.120 --> 01:00:52.120] The border service is also pondering the increased use of radar, sensors, cameras, drones and vehicle scanners. [01:00:52.120 --> 01:00:57.120] Several hundred University of California students dressed in black lay on the ground [01:00:57.120 --> 01:01:02.120] to protest an inherently racist bake sale hosted by Berkeley Republicans. [01:01:02.120 --> 01:01:08.120] The college Republicans sold baked goods at different prices based on race and gender [01:01:08.120 --> 01:01:14.120] to bring attention to a bill allowing California public schools to consider race, ethnicity and gender [01:01:14.120 --> 01:01:18.120] in admissions as long as no preference is given. [01:01:18.120 --> 01:01:25.120] Many in the U.S. have been drawn to Republican presidential candidate Representative Ron Paul [01:01:25.120 --> 01:01:29.120] over his anti-war stance and, quote, progressive beliefs. [01:01:29.120 --> 01:01:35.120] However, critics say Americans might find some of Paul's ideological positions disturbing. [01:01:35.120 --> 01:01:40.120] In 2004, Paul marked the 40th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act by saying, quote, [01:01:40.120 --> 01:01:44.120] bureaucrats are forcing employers to hire by racial quota. [01:01:44.120 --> 01:01:49.120] Ron Paul has also appeared at events sponsored by the John Birch Society, [01:01:49.120 --> 01:01:56.120] the segregationist organization that is closely aligned with the Christian reconstructionist wing of the religious right. [01:01:56.120 --> 01:02:04.120] In 2008, James Kerchick exposed in the New Republic several newsletters circulating with Paul's name in the title [01:02:04.120 --> 01:02:07.120] contained overtly racist material. [01:02:07.120 --> 01:02:11.120] Earlier this year, Paul declared on Fox News Sunday, [01:02:11.120 --> 01:02:19.120] Social Security and Medicare were unconstitutional, saying they should be abolished for the evil they are, just like slavery. [01:02:19.120 --> 01:02:26.120] Thirteen doctors and nurses who treated anti-government protests in Bahrain earlier this year were sentenced Thursday [01:02:26.120 --> 01:02:30.120] to 15 years in prison for crimes against the state. [01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:35.120] Seven other medical professionals were given sentences of five to ten years by a special tribunal [01:02:35.120 --> 01:02:39.120] set up during the emergency rule that followed demonstrations. [01:02:39.120 --> 01:02:44.120] The doctor's trial has been criticized by rights groups for Bahrain's use of the security court, [01:02:44.120 --> 01:02:47.120] military prosecutors and military judges. [01:02:47.120 --> 01:02:53.120] Thursday's sentences came a day after the tribunal upheld the conviction of 21 activists, [01:02:53.120 --> 01:03:22.120] including eight prominent political figures imprisoned for life. [01:03:22.120 --> 01:03:48.120] . [01:03:48.120 --> 01:03:49.120] I was like, [01:03:49.120 --> 01:03:50.120] Shant for a word [01:03:50.120 --> 01:03:52.120] Mother, let me tell them [01:03:52.120 --> 01:03:54.120] Shant down by, [01:03:54.120 --> 01:03:55.120] Shant by a word [01:03:55.120 --> 01:03:57.120] Shant for just a second [01:03:57.120 --> 01:03:59.120] Shant for a bit more [01:03:59.120 --> 01:04:01.120] Shant for a little bit more [01:04:01.120 --> 01:04:03.120] Shant for a little bit more [01:04:03.120 --> 01:04:04.120] Shant for a word [01:04:04.120 --> 01:04:06.120] Shant for a little bit more [01:04:06.120 --> 01:04:08.120] Mother, let me tell them [01:04:08.120 --> 01:04:10.120] When it's hard for me to see [01:04:10.120 --> 01:04:13.120] Say all my words created equally [01:04:13.120 --> 01:04:15.120] Shant, don't bother another [01:04:15.120 --> 01:04:17.120] We're daily [01:04:17.120 --> 01:04:19.120] When nights come fresh [01:04:19.120 --> 01:04:20.120] Everybody [01:04:20.120 --> 01:04:22.120] So when I want me [01:04:22.120 --> 01:04:23.120] I have to chant them [01:04:23.120 --> 01:04:24.120] Man [01:04:24.120 --> 01:04:25.120] Me check the Babylon [01:04:25.120 --> 01:04:27.120] Because Babylon is rough [01:04:27.120 --> 01:04:29.120] The only right man [01:04:29.120 --> 01:04:31.120] Me say is the rest, come on [01:04:31.120 --> 01:04:33.120] We take me to Lord Mandib [01:04:33.120 --> 01:04:34.120] Oh, we have a man [01:04:34.120 --> 01:04:36.120] To chant on Babylon [01:04:36.120 --> 01:04:37.120] No, not there [01:04:37.120 --> 01:04:39.120] Okay, so we are back [01:04:39.120 --> 01:04:42.120] We're speaking with [01:04:42.120 --> 01:04:43.120] Michelle Rosen [01:04:43.120 --> 01:04:44.120] and Scott Bart [01:04:44.120 --> 01:04:46.120] about the Tylenol murders [01:04:46.120 --> 01:04:48.120] and this is an anniversary [01:04:48.120 --> 01:04:50.120] that is different from the rest [01:04:50.120 --> 01:04:52.120] because now this book has been released [01:04:52.120 --> 01:04:54.120] and they're able to actually do something [01:04:54.120 --> 01:04:56.120] and make a difference in the public [01:04:56.120 --> 01:04:57.120] and Scott and Michelle [01:04:57.120 --> 01:04:59.120] we really do appreciate you coming on [01:04:59.120 --> 01:05:01.120] especially Michelle, we appreciate you coming on [01:05:01.120 --> 01:05:03.120] I know that this must be a very difficult time for you [01:05:03.120 --> 01:05:05.120] this is the 29th anniversary [01:05:05.120 --> 01:05:07.120] of the death of your mother [01:05:07.120 --> 01:05:09.120] when you were such a young girl [01:05:09.120 --> 01:05:11.120] and so I do appreciate you giving us your time [01:05:11.120 --> 01:05:13.120] and I hope that [01:05:13.120 --> 01:05:15.120] I hope that we are helping [01:05:15.120 --> 01:05:17.120] your parents in your life [01:05:17.120 --> 01:05:19.120] and get justice for your mother [01:05:19.120 --> 01:05:20.120] Michelle [01:05:20.120 --> 01:05:21.120] Well, thank you [01:05:21.120 --> 01:05:22.120] Thank you very much [01:05:22.120 --> 01:05:23.120] It's very exciting [01:05:23.120 --> 01:05:25.120] This whole thing is very exciting [01:05:25.120 --> 01:05:28.120] It's a completely different anniversary [01:05:28.120 --> 01:05:31.120] than it's ever been my entire life [01:05:31.120 --> 01:05:34.120] lost and not ever feeling like [01:05:34.120 --> 01:05:36.120] justice is going to come [01:05:36.120 --> 01:05:38.120] or any answers even [01:05:38.120 --> 01:05:40.120] believing the series [01:05:40.120 --> 01:05:42.120] the garbage that they had been feeding us [01:05:42.120 --> 01:05:43.120] for all those years [01:05:43.120 --> 01:05:45.120] and now that I know the truth [01:05:45.120 --> 01:05:48.120] the anniversary today is much, much different [01:05:48.120 --> 01:05:50.120] it's like a excitement [01:05:50.120 --> 01:05:52.120] feeling very powerful [01:05:52.120 --> 01:05:54.120] feeling like you're serving [01:05:54.120 --> 01:05:55.120] going to help [01:05:55.120 --> 01:05:57.120] now it's not just about my mom [01:05:57.120 --> 01:05:59.120] which has always been all these years [01:05:59.120 --> 01:06:01.120] now it's been about all seven of the victims [01:06:01.120 --> 01:06:03.120] and maybe more [01:06:03.120 --> 01:06:05.120] whoever had died from that [01:06:05.120 --> 01:06:08.120] now it's like, hey, we're doing something [01:06:08.120 --> 01:06:10.120] and that just feels completely different [01:06:10.120 --> 01:06:12.120] but at the same time, very odd [01:06:12.120 --> 01:06:16.120] because now Scott and I have delivered this [01:06:16.120 --> 01:06:17.120] these facts [01:06:17.120 --> 01:06:20.120] and delivered this information to [01:06:20.120 --> 01:06:22.120] authorities and media [01:06:22.120 --> 01:06:23.120] and everything else [01:06:23.120 --> 01:06:25.120] mainstream and not [01:06:25.120 --> 01:06:27.120] and it seems like [01:06:27.120 --> 01:06:30.120] it's one of those still the same thing [01:06:30.120 --> 01:06:32.120] like nobody's really looking out [01:06:32.120 --> 01:06:35.120] for dead people over corporation [01:06:35.120 --> 01:06:37.120] and that's just sickening me [01:06:37.120 --> 01:06:40.120] Alright, well hopefully we'll be able to do something about that here [01:06:40.120 --> 01:06:42.120] by getting the word out [01:06:42.120 --> 01:06:44.120] and I'm sure that there are still lawsuits [01:06:44.120 --> 01:06:45.120] that can be filed over this [01:06:45.120 --> 01:06:48.120] the statute of limitations never runs out on murder [01:06:48.120 --> 01:06:49.120] and with fraud [01:06:49.120 --> 01:06:51.120] the statute of limitations begins [01:06:51.120 --> 01:06:52.120] the clock begins [01:06:52.120 --> 01:06:54.120] the discovery of the fraud [01:06:54.120 --> 01:06:56.120] which is recent [01:06:56.120 --> 01:06:59.120] and so we still have the opportunity to bring [01:06:59.120 --> 01:07:01.120] the real perps to justice [01:07:01.120 --> 01:07:03.120] and I would say [01:07:03.120 --> 01:07:05.120] the media includes the perps [01:07:05.120 --> 01:07:08.120] because they were instrumental in the cover up [01:07:08.120 --> 01:07:10.120] I mean the list goes on and on [01:07:10.120 --> 01:07:12.120] so let's get back to this [01:07:12.120 --> 01:07:15.120] reactivated investigation [01:07:15.120 --> 01:07:16.120] Alright, we've mentioned before [01:07:16.120 --> 01:07:18.120] they're trying to bring the Easter Bunny [01:07:18.120 --> 01:07:22.120] I mean the Unabomber into the mix now [01:07:22.120 --> 01:07:24.120] and blame it on him [01:07:24.120 --> 01:07:26.120] I mean, you know, who else? [01:07:26.120 --> 01:07:29.120] Elvis, so Scott and Michelle [01:07:29.120 --> 01:07:35.120] where does this reactivated investigation stand now? [01:07:35.120 --> 01:07:38.120] Well, you know, it's quite interesting [01:07:38.120 --> 01:07:41.120] how these officials in Illinois [01:07:41.120 --> 01:07:44.120] the U.S. Dan Webb, Tyrone Feiner [01:07:44.120 --> 01:07:48.120] who was the Illinois Attorney General back in 82 [01:07:48.120 --> 01:07:50.120] some of these guys come forward now [01:07:50.120 --> 01:07:51.120] when the case is reactivated [01:07:51.120 --> 01:07:53.120] and they search Lewis' apartment [01:07:53.120 --> 01:07:55.120] with absolutely no evidence [01:07:55.120 --> 01:07:56.120] and they make statements [01:07:56.120 --> 01:07:57.120] yeah, this is always the guy [01:07:57.120 --> 01:07:59.120] we always believed he did it [01:07:59.120 --> 01:08:02.120] well, a couple years later [01:08:02.120 --> 01:08:04.120] they never charged Lewis [01:08:04.120 --> 01:08:06.120] and all of a sudden, Unabomber comes up [01:08:06.120 --> 01:08:07.120] and now they're back on [01:08:07.120 --> 01:08:09.120] and Tyrone Feiner did an interview [01:08:09.120 --> 01:08:11.120] recently saying something to the effect [01:08:11.120 --> 01:08:13.120] that, gee, I don't know why we didn't think [01:08:13.120 --> 01:08:15.120] it could have Kaczynski before [01:08:15.120 --> 01:08:18.120] so it seems that now Mr. Feiner [01:08:18.120 --> 01:08:22.120] has passed the Tylenol Man [01:08:22.120 --> 01:08:25.120] moniker on to the Unabomber [01:08:25.120 --> 01:08:27.120] and they would like to close out [01:08:27.120 --> 01:08:29.120] the 1982 Tylenol Murders [01:08:29.120 --> 01:08:32.120] and the 1986 Tylenol Murder Case [01:08:32.120 --> 01:08:35.120] by pinning them both on Ted Kaczynski [01:08:35.120 --> 01:08:37.120] this is so ridiculous [01:08:37.120 --> 01:08:39.120] I mean, that is just so... [01:08:39.120 --> 01:08:41.120] I mean, it's just so brain-dead [01:08:41.120 --> 01:08:43.120] I'm sorry, I mean, I just can't believe [01:08:43.120 --> 01:08:45.120] that they're even going there [01:08:45.120 --> 01:08:47.120] but, you know, it just makes them look [01:08:47.120 --> 01:08:48.120] even that much worse [01:08:48.120 --> 01:08:51.120] that it's obviously a cooked-up story [01:08:51.120 --> 01:08:53.120] okay, so go ahead, Scott [01:08:53.120 --> 01:08:56.120] well, I was going to say, Deborah, you know [01:08:56.120 --> 01:08:58.120] the mainstream media [01:08:58.120 --> 01:09:01.120] they made a big show of the Unabomber case [01:09:01.120 --> 01:09:03.120] they were searching Jim Lewis's apartment [01:09:03.120 --> 01:09:04.120] there was no new evidence [01:09:04.120 --> 01:09:06.120] there was nothing to indicate [01:09:06.120 --> 01:09:08.120] these people were involved in any way [01:09:08.120 --> 01:09:10.120] but it was a huge mainstream media story [01:09:10.120 --> 01:09:12.120] now, my book, three journalists [01:09:12.120 --> 01:09:14.120] read this book before it was released [01:09:14.120 --> 01:09:16.120] all three published articles [01:09:16.120 --> 01:09:19.120] about the book and found [01:09:19.120 --> 01:09:21.120] the book was well-written [01:09:21.120 --> 01:09:23.120] they were fascinated by what they found [01:09:23.120 --> 01:09:25.120] they documented and verified the evidence [01:09:25.120 --> 01:09:26.120] in this book [01:09:26.120 --> 01:09:28.120] these are the facts here [01:09:28.120 --> 01:09:29.120] we know what happened [01:09:29.120 --> 01:09:32.120] but the mainstream media doesn't pick up that story [01:09:32.120 --> 01:09:34.120] that some independent journalists did [01:09:34.120 --> 01:09:35.120] in the Daily Herald [01:09:35.120 --> 01:09:38.120] an independent newspaper in suburban Chicago [01:09:38.120 --> 01:09:39.120] picked up the story [01:09:39.120 --> 01:09:41.120] not the mainstream press [01:09:41.120 --> 01:09:43.120] and the FBI won't comment [01:09:43.120 --> 01:09:48.120] and they're just wanting to keep this information quiet [01:09:48.120 --> 01:09:50.120] well, let's not forget that the Unabomber [01:09:50.120 --> 01:09:52.120] is from the same town [01:09:52.120 --> 01:09:55.120] where he lived once is Lombard, Illinois [01:09:55.120 --> 01:09:57.120] that's where the Tylenol Task Force [01:09:57.120 --> 01:10:00.120] was four members of the Tylenol Task Force [01:10:00.120 --> 01:10:03.120] working the FBI agents [01:10:03.120 --> 01:10:05.120] at the Lombard Police Department [01:10:05.120 --> 01:10:06.120] and Unabombers from that town [01:10:06.120 --> 01:10:08.120] is that ironic? [01:10:08.120 --> 01:10:10.120] but he was living in Montana in 19... [01:10:10.120 --> 01:10:11.120] he was [01:10:11.120 --> 01:10:12.120] but at the same time he grew up [01:10:12.120 --> 01:10:14.120] his parents still live there in Lombard [01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:15.120] so... [01:10:15.120 --> 01:10:17.120] well, we aren't talking about the FBI [01:10:17.120 --> 01:10:19.120] that's fraud, bias, and ineptitude [01:10:19.120 --> 01:10:21.120] and they're planted right there [01:10:21.120 --> 01:10:23.120] in the same town that this guy once lived [01:10:23.120 --> 01:10:24.120] so I think it's a little weird [01:10:24.120 --> 01:10:25.120] it's a small town [01:10:25.120 --> 01:10:27.120] it's two towns over from me right now [01:10:27.120 --> 01:10:30.120] and I think it's very odd [01:10:30.120 --> 01:10:32.120] well, speaking of the Tylenol Task Force [01:10:32.120 --> 01:10:36.120] what is their response to this book? [01:10:36.120 --> 01:10:38.120] well... [01:10:38.120 --> 01:10:40.120] they've been quiet [01:10:40.120 --> 01:10:42.120] they won't comment on the book [01:10:42.120 --> 01:10:44.120] and I like how they don't comment [01:10:44.120 --> 01:10:46.120] they like to usually get a little dig [01:10:46.120 --> 01:10:48.120] to indicate that it has no merit [01:10:48.120 --> 01:10:50.120] that was, of course, Jane Jay's response [01:10:50.120 --> 01:10:51.120] we have no comment [01:10:51.120 --> 01:10:53.120] but the book has no merit [01:10:53.120 --> 01:10:54.120] so they do comment [01:10:54.120 --> 01:10:56.120] and since it's the Mighty Johnson and Johnson [01:10:56.120 --> 01:10:58.120] saying the book has no merit [01:10:58.120 --> 01:10:59.120] then they expect people to believe it [01:10:59.120 --> 01:11:01.120] of course, they haven't read the book [01:11:01.120 --> 01:11:04.120] everyone who's read the book finds it incredible [01:11:04.120 --> 01:11:07.120] what is turned up in here [01:11:07.120 --> 01:11:11.120] but the Tylenol Task Force is quiet [01:11:11.120 --> 01:11:13.120] and they won't comment [01:11:13.120 --> 01:11:15.120] I don't know if they bought the book or not [01:11:15.120 --> 01:11:17.120] I will tell you that the FBI in Chicago [01:11:17.120 --> 01:11:20.120] does visit my website from time to time [01:11:20.120 --> 01:11:21.120] they were just down this afternoon [01:11:21.120 --> 01:11:24.120] and viewed my Fox video interview [01:11:24.120 --> 01:11:26.120] interesting, yeah, it's always a good idea [01:11:26.120 --> 01:11:28.120] to track those IP addresses [01:11:28.120 --> 01:11:30.120] that hit your website [01:11:30.120 --> 01:11:33.120] so what if anything can be done now [01:11:33.120 --> 01:11:38.120] to bring the real Tylenol killer to justice? [01:11:38.120 --> 01:11:41.120] well, we've got to get documents released [01:11:41.120 --> 01:11:44.120] they're hiding behind [01:11:44.120 --> 01:11:48.120] this phony investigation [01:11:48.120 --> 01:11:50.120] and these grand juries that were convened [01:11:50.120 --> 01:11:53.120] and they're hiding behind these secrecy rules [01:11:53.120 --> 01:11:54.120] of grand juries [01:11:54.120 --> 01:11:56.120] and this act of investigation [01:11:56.120 --> 01:11:57.120] which gives them the legal right [01:11:57.120 --> 01:11:59.120] not to turn over documents [01:11:59.120 --> 01:12:02.120] but how could turning over documents [01:12:02.120 --> 01:12:05.120] now possibly hinder this investigation? [01:12:05.120 --> 01:12:08.120] the Tylenol killer is probably dead, number one [01:12:08.120 --> 01:12:10.120] and for 29 years [01:12:10.120 --> 01:12:12.120] keeping all this information secret [01:12:12.120 --> 01:12:14.120] has got them nowhere [01:12:14.120 --> 01:12:16.120] but they don't want to get nowhere [01:12:16.120 --> 01:12:18.120] because if they turn over the documents they have [01:12:18.120 --> 01:12:20.120] they're going to expose themselves [01:12:20.120 --> 01:12:24.120] for what a corrupt inept investigation they led [01:12:24.120 --> 01:12:28.120] absolutely, well, the only place it has gotten them [01:12:28.120 --> 01:12:31.120] is that it's protected the J&J company [01:12:31.120 --> 01:12:33.120] from lawsuits up to this point [01:12:33.120 --> 01:12:34.120] which I said [01:12:34.120 --> 01:12:36.120] it sounds very non-elevenish [01:12:36.120 --> 01:12:38.120] yeah, it does [01:12:38.120 --> 01:12:39.120] absolutely [01:12:39.120 --> 01:12:41.120] yeah, well, and that's another thing [01:12:41.120 --> 01:12:43.120] what goes into quite a bit is [01:12:43.120 --> 01:12:46.120] all the connections of Johnson & Johnson back then [01:12:46.120 --> 01:12:48.120] and that they still have today [01:12:48.120 --> 01:12:50.120] and it's amazing that some of the moves [01:12:50.120 --> 01:12:52.120] that were made in Johnson & Johnson [01:12:52.120 --> 01:12:53.120] just before the murders [01:12:53.120 --> 01:12:55.120] and the connection that the chairman [01:12:55.120 --> 01:12:57.120] of the McNeil Consumer Product Company [01:12:57.120 --> 01:12:59.120] the maker of Tylenol [01:12:59.120 --> 01:13:01.120] had to people living right there [01:13:01.120 --> 01:13:03.120] in the middle of the crime scene [01:13:03.120 --> 01:13:05.120] they really had their ducks in place [01:13:05.120 --> 01:13:07.120] they got their lawyers out there immediately [01:13:07.120 --> 01:13:10.120] their PR people out there immediately [01:13:10.120 --> 01:13:12.120] and they took control of the investigation [01:13:12.120 --> 01:13:16.120] and control of the PR spin [01:13:16.120 --> 01:13:18.120] absolutely, and folks, if you watch [01:13:18.120 --> 01:13:20.120] Gary Franchi's video [01:13:20.120 --> 01:13:24.120] is there a link to that on your website, Scott, by the way? [01:13:24.120 --> 01:13:27.120] you know, I'll put one up there tonight [01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:29.120] I had had one [01:13:29.120 --> 01:13:30.120] but I'll put one up there tonight [01:13:30.120 --> 01:13:31.120] I don't think it's there right now [01:13:31.120 --> 01:13:33.120] okay, yeah [01:13:33.120 --> 01:13:34.120] no, it's not [01:13:34.120 --> 01:13:36.120] okay, I'm right on it [01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:39.120] because he exposes [01:13:39.120 --> 01:13:42.120] in depth the links [01:13:42.120 --> 01:13:44.120] between Johnson & Johnson [01:13:44.120 --> 01:13:46.120] and the corporate media at the time [01:13:46.120 --> 01:13:49.120] CNN, Ted Turner, it just goes on and on and on [01:13:49.120 --> 01:13:51.120] people being roommates with each other [01:13:51.120 --> 01:13:53.120] at Harvard and all these things [01:13:53.120 --> 01:13:55.120] and because of all the links [01:13:55.120 --> 01:13:57.120] of the big wigs at Johnson & Johnson [01:13:57.120 --> 01:13:59.120] to the corporate media [01:13:59.120 --> 01:14:02.120] they were obviously very [01:14:02.120 --> 01:14:04.120] it was very easy for them to be able to control [01:14:04.120 --> 01:14:07.120] the quote-unquote official story [01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:09.120] you know, that's something [01:14:09.120 --> 01:14:11.120] I do have that video up [01:14:11.120 --> 01:14:13.120] if you go to Americanfraud.com [01:14:13.120 --> 01:14:15.120] and then click on the contact page [01:14:15.120 --> 01:14:17.120] the video is on that page [01:14:17.120 --> 01:14:19.120] so on the left-hand side [01:14:19.120 --> 01:14:21.120] just click into the contact the author page [01:14:21.120 --> 01:14:24.120] and you'll see the Gary Franchi clip on that page [01:14:24.120 --> 01:14:25.120] excellent [01:14:25.120 --> 01:14:27.120] and by the way, CBS recently [01:14:27.120 --> 01:14:29.120] they did a little piece [01:14:29.120 --> 01:14:31.120] on the release of this book on Monday [01:14:31.120 --> 01:14:34.120] and they insinuated that [01:14:34.120 --> 01:14:37.120] the book was supported by [01:14:37.120 --> 01:14:40.120] Restore the Republic, a right-wing extremist [01:14:40.120 --> 01:14:42.120] group that believes in New World Order [01:14:42.120 --> 01:14:44.120] and secret societies [01:14:44.120 --> 01:14:47.120] in other words, this is just a conspiracy theory [01:14:47.120 --> 01:14:49.120] in that case [01:14:49.120 --> 01:14:52.120] book is what the CBS spin is [01:14:52.120 --> 01:14:55.120] well, folks can read the book and judge for themselves [01:14:55.120 --> 01:14:57.120] that's all I got to say about that [01:14:57.120 --> 01:15:00.120] Hey Deborah, I want to tell you one thing [01:15:00.120 --> 01:15:03.120] when you were just talking legal stuff there [01:15:03.120 --> 01:15:07.120] and I want to tell you what they have done to all the families [01:15:07.120 --> 01:15:10.120] in this time of trying to settle [01:15:10.120 --> 01:15:13.120] and making claims when families put [01:15:13.120 --> 01:15:16.120] their lawsuits against Johnson & Johnson [01:15:16.120 --> 01:15:18.120] or McNeil at the time [01:15:18.120 --> 01:15:21.120] when they had put that up, they put us [01:15:21.120 --> 01:15:24.120] nine years, nine years that they had put our families [01:15:24.120 --> 01:15:26.120] through absolute hell [01:15:26.120 --> 01:15:28.120] and had done nothing [01:15:28.120 --> 01:15:31.120] to settle anything like that [01:15:31.120 --> 01:15:34.120] one week before our families went to trial [01:15:34.120 --> 01:15:37.120] that Johnson & Johnson decided to do this [01:15:37.120 --> 01:15:40.120] settlement, they were going to [01:15:40.120 --> 01:15:43.120] we'll pay you, you can never talk about this, you can never [01:15:43.120 --> 01:15:46.120] anything, sue again, blah blah blah, anything else [01:15:46.120 --> 01:15:49.120] well, one interesting thing that I had learned [01:15:49.120 --> 01:15:52.120] in this research with Scott is that [01:15:52.120 --> 01:15:55.120] when they had asked my dad, my dad had told us [01:15:55.120 --> 01:15:58.120] the lawyers in the beginning were saying [01:15:58.120 --> 01:16:01.120] we'd be getting millions of dollars and help pay for childcare [01:16:01.120 --> 01:16:04.120] and all these things, but it had taken [01:16:04.120 --> 01:16:07.120] nine years to get to that point [01:16:07.120 --> 01:16:11.120] so in 1991, one week before we went to trial [01:16:11.120 --> 01:16:14.120] my dad's attorneys, there was just a few [01:16:14.120 --> 01:16:17.120] they only allowed three to represent all the families [01:16:17.120 --> 01:16:19.120] or two to represent all the families [01:16:19.120 --> 01:16:21.120] they had gone to the families and said [01:16:21.120 --> 01:16:24.120] you settle today or you get nothing [01:16:24.120 --> 01:16:26.120] and that's what they told them [01:16:26.120 --> 01:16:29.120] and so in the end [01:16:29.120 --> 01:16:32.120] I just want the public to know this because [01:16:32.120 --> 01:16:35.120] I have no idea how these numbers came about [01:16:35.120 --> 01:16:38.120] but all the media always claims that [01:16:38.120 --> 01:16:41.120] Johnson & Johnson paid 40 million dollars to the families [01:16:41.120 --> 01:16:44.120] I received 96,000 dollars and we got the most [01:16:44.120 --> 01:16:47.120] Alright, strictly abused here [01:16:47.120 --> 01:16:50.120] Michelle, Scott, stay right there [01:16:50.120 --> 01:16:53.120] we'll be right back on the other side, callers [01:16:53.120 --> 01:16:56.120] if you have any questions or throwing your comments [01:16:56.120 --> 01:17:25.120] go to 2-646-1984 [01:17:26.120 --> 01:17:33.120] Voting against every tax increase, every untoward budget, every time. [01:17:33.120 --> 01:17:38.120] Standing up to the Washington machine, guided by principle. [01:17:38.120 --> 01:17:42.120] Ron Paul, the one who will stop the spending. [01:17:42.120 --> 01:17:46.120] Save the dollar, create jobs, bring peace. [01:17:46.120 --> 01:17:49.120] The one who will restore liberty. [01:17:49.120 --> 01:17:56.120] Ron Paul, the one who can beat Obama and restore America now. [01:17:56.120 --> 01:18:00.120] I'm Ron Paul and I approve this message. [01:18:00.120 --> 01:18:04.120] If you entered into a mortgage agreement after the year 2000, [01:18:04.120 --> 01:18:09.120] you were subjected to the largest fraud ever perpetrated on the American public. [01:18:09.120 --> 01:18:13.120] The banks plotted not only to steal the equity in your home, [01:18:13.120 --> 01:18:18.120] they also planned to scam you out of your retirement funds and leave you homeless and penniless. [01:18:18.120 --> 01:18:22.120] The money changers have used what they stole from you to buy your legislators, [01:18:22.120 --> 01:18:27.120] government oversight agencies, and most unfortunately, the courts. [01:18:27.120 --> 01:18:32.120] If you have been foreclosed on, are facing foreclosure, or are up to date on your payments, [01:18:32.120 --> 01:18:36.120] there is something you can do to set things to right. [01:18:36.120 --> 01:18:45.120] Call 855-588-8501 and we will show you how to force the corrupt courts to do their jobs. [01:18:45.120 --> 01:18:49.120] You can stop these thieving bankers from destroying this country [01:18:49.120 --> 01:18:54.120] and from forcing your children and grandchildren onto the streets as slaves to them. [01:18:54.120 --> 01:19:20.120] Call 855-588-8501 now. [01:19:24.120 --> 01:19:29.120] Call 855-588-8501 now. [01:19:54.120 --> 01:20:04.120] Call 855-588-8501 now. [01:20:25.120 --> 01:20:32.120] Before J&J went to settle with the families of the victims, [01:20:32.120 --> 01:20:39.120] they had filed a motion to have this liability lawsuit be a closed trial. [01:20:39.120 --> 01:20:41.120] In other words, to keep it secret. [01:20:41.120 --> 01:20:48.120] They told the judge we need to keep this a closed trial because we don't want other copycats to come about because of this. [01:20:48.120 --> 01:20:56.120] Well, the judge denied that request and only then did they call up the plaintiffs' attorneys and say, [01:20:56.120 --> 01:20:58.120] OK, now we want to make a deal. [01:20:58.120 --> 01:21:00.120] So they made their deal. [01:21:00.120 --> 01:21:05.120] They made all of the victims' families sign confidentiality agreements [01:21:05.120 --> 01:21:08.120] and then they went back to the judge in that trial and said, [01:21:08.120 --> 01:21:14.120] Judge, we're filing a motion to keep all of our evidence hidden under a protective order. [01:21:14.120 --> 01:21:18.120] And the judge said, well, this is not good. [01:21:18.120 --> 01:21:19.120] That's not right. [01:21:19.120 --> 01:21:22.120] What goes on in the public court should be public knowledge. [01:21:22.120 --> 01:21:23.120] But you know what? [01:21:23.120 --> 01:21:26.120] I'm going to grant that protective order anyway. [01:21:26.120 --> 01:21:35.120] So J&J, through this court system, was able to hide all of the evidence they had turned over to the court. [01:21:35.120 --> 01:21:40.120] And so does that sound like a company that really wanted to get to the bottom of this? [01:21:40.120 --> 01:21:45.120] And Michelle, tell them what kind of pressure was put on your dad. [01:21:45.120 --> 01:21:51.120] Well, they told my dad that if he didn't sign, then nobody was getting any money whatsoever. [01:21:51.120 --> 01:21:53.120] So it was sign or else. [01:21:53.120 --> 01:21:57.120] And they also told my dad, if you don't sign this, you're not getting anything. [01:21:57.120 --> 01:21:58.120] And you know what? [01:21:58.120 --> 01:21:59.120] They might actually come after you. [01:21:59.120 --> 01:22:01.120] That was what my dad told me. [01:22:01.120 --> 01:22:03.120] That's what they did to him. [01:22:03.120 --> 01:22:04.120] No, wait a minute. [01:22:04.120 --> 01:22:07.120] Please clarify, who is they? [01:22:07.120 --> 01:22:09.120] They is the attorneys. [01:22:09.120 --> 01:22:11.120] You're an attorney. [01:22:11.120 --> 01:22:13.120] You're an attorney. [01:22:13.120 --> 01:22:14.120] Yes. [01:22:14.120 --> 01:22:15.120] That's what I wanted to know. [01:22:15.120 --> 01:22:17.120] It was his own attorneys. [01:22:17.120 --> 01:22:18.120] His own attorneys. [01:22:18.120 --> 01:22:21.120] The attorneys represented him to sign or else. [01:22:21.120 --> 01:22:22.120] Sign or else. [01:22:22.120 --> 01:22:26.120] And it was one of those things that my dad had said he had gone through. [01:22:26.120 --> 01:22:29.120] You know, we were minors at the time, so we were not involved in this. [01:22:29.120 --> 01:22:35.120] My dad wanted to do anything to keep us from having to sit in court and having to go through this again. [01:22:35.120 --> 01:22:40.120] My dad did not want to have, you know, his girls have to do this. [01:22:40.120 --> 01:22:43.120] And so he wanted to do anything to settle out of court. [01:22:43.120 --> 01:22:44.120] Sure. [01:22:44.120 --> 01:22:47.120] But at the same time he had said, you know, it was just a quick switch. [01:22:47.120 --> 01:22:52.120] He said, you know, all these years that these, you know, attorneys that had been representing him, [01:22:52.120 --> 01:22:54.120] it was millions, millions, millions. [01:22:54.120 --> 01:22:58.120] And we're going to take half whenever you do get it, by the way, in all of our expenses. [01:22:58.120 --> 01:23:01.120] And he was okay with that. [01:23:01.120 --> 01:23:06.120] And then, you know, one week before trial, it was take this money or else. [01:23:06.120 --> 01:23:12.120] And it was, you know, each of us children that was left, my mom, you know, had left four children behind. [01:23:12.120 --> 01:23:16.120] And we were going to receive $96,000. [01:23:16.120 --> 01:23:18.120] This is what we were going to get. [01:23:18.120 --> 01:23:20.120] And why my dad agreed to that? [01:23:20.120 --> 01:23:22.120] It had to be super pressure. [01:23:22.120 --> 01:23:24.120] I mean, right now it doesn't make any sense at all. [01:23:24.120 --> 01:23:30.120] But what they must have done to us and them and everything else, like I said, I was a minor at the time. [01:23:30.120 --> 01:23:37.120] But how my dad describes it now, finally opening up to me about this, was complete health and risk and threats. [01:23:37.120 --> 01:23:43.120] And, you know, all of these things saying, just do it or else they might even come after you. [01:23:43.120 --> 01:23:52.120] And apparently they had already tried to go after your dad at the beginning as part of the conspiracy theory that they had to abort. [01:23:52.120 --> 01:23:57.120] What this 29-year-old widow of four had gone through by this point? [01:23:57.120 --> 01:24:02.120] I mean, I can't even imagine why he wouldn't have signed, I mean, why you wouldn't have signed everything at that point. [01:24:02.120 --> 01:24:06.120] What he was going through, I mean, he just, we watched her in the kitchen. [01:24:06.120 --> 01:24:08.120] We watched all this stuff happen. [01:24:08.120 --> 01:24:17.120] And here he is, a 29-year-old widow of four just trying to bury his wife, getting accused of doing this, being raped through this whole system, [01:24:17.120 --> 01:24:21.120] raising the kids, you know, being a single dad now at this point, and going through all of this stuff. [01:24:21.120 --> 01:24:26.120] And then nine years later still saying, you know what, they might come after you, you know, do it or else. [01:24:26.120 --> 01:24:28.120] It's that do it or else thing. [01:24:28.120 --> 01:24:30.120] From your own attorneys? [01:24:30.120 --> 01:24:32.120] Good God, please. [01:24:32.120 --> 01:24:34.120] It's just absolutely atrocious. [01:24:34.120 --> 01:24:35.120] It's sickening. [01:24:35.120 --> 01:24:37.120] Absolutely atrocious. [01:24:37.120 --> 01:24:46.120] Obviously, you know, the family's attorneys were working hand in hand with the prosecutors and with the attorneys for Johnson & Johnson. [01:24:46.120 --> 01:24:48.120] There's just no other explanation. [01:24:48.120 --> 01:24:51.120] It's the same old thing that we see all the time in the criminal justice system. [01:24:51.120 --> 01:24:54.120] Your defense attorney is not there to work for you. [01:24:54.120 --> 01:24:57.120] I promise you that, even if you hire him or her. [01:24:57.120 --> 01:24:59.120] Well, he retired. [01:24:59.120 --> 01:25:01.120] He retired right after this case. [01:25:01.120 --> 01:25:09.120] So I imagine that with the very low, minimal amount of losses that came through, he must have gotten something extra because he was retired immediately. [01:25:09.120 --> 01:25:16.120] So that's just another, you know, tidbit to the story that isn't coincidental, I don't think. [01:25:16.120 --> 01:25:21.120] And Michelle, you have mentioned before, you mentioned to me off the air, I just wanted to mention this again on the air. [01:25:21.120 --> 01:25:23.120] You're not doing this for money. [01:25:23.120 --> 01:25:25.120] You're doing this for justice. [01:25:25.120 --> 01:25:31.120] And I have to say that, you know, in the court system, there is something called punitive damages. [01:25:31.120 --> 01:25:37.120] And yes, you would be the ones, you would be the ones, the families would be the ones to get the punitive damages. [01:25:37.120 --> 01:25:39.120] But there's a reason for punitive damages. [01:25:39.120 --> 01:25:40.120] It's to punish. [01:25:40.120 --> 01:25:41.120] That's what punitive means. [01:25:41.120 --> 01:25:47.120] It's to punish the perps so that something like this doesn't happen again so that they don't do it again. [01:25:47.120 --> 01:25:51.120] And as a deterrent so that other entities don't do anything like this again. [01:25:51.120 --> 01:25:56.120] So you're absolutely coming at this from a point of the highest level of integrity. [01:25:56.120 --> 01:25:58.120] This isn't about just getting money. [01:25:58.120 --> 01:26:00.120] And I wanted to put that out there. [01:26:00.120 --> 01:26:01.120] Okay. [01:26:01.120 --> 01:26:04.120] We are going to, did you have any comments on that before I go to the court? [01:26:04.120 --> 01:26:11.120] No, I'm just going to say, I mean, the idea of even having $1 of their disgusting dollars, you know, makes me sick at this point. [01:26:11.120 --> 01:26:16.120] But, you know, what they do to the families to all this. [01:26:16.120 --> 01:26:23.120] And then I think if this is just the seven, like how they do this with just adverse reactions or any other drugs or anything else, [01:26:23.120 --> 01:26:26.120] that this happens to normal everyday people all the time. [01:26:26.120 --> 01:26:28.120] I mean, it's just so sad. [01:26:28.120 --> 01:26:29.120] It really is. [01:26:29.120 --> 01:26:30.120] It absolutely is. [01:26:30.120 --> 01:26:34.120] Well, this is how Johnson and Johnson's handles private liability cases. [01:26:34.120 --> 01:26:42.120] You suppress information and evidence and you drag things out until the plaintiff just is worn out. [01:26:42.120 --> 01:26:44.120] Yeah, worn out and wants to be done with it. [01:26:44.120 --> 01:26:45.120] Absolutely. [01:26:45.120 --> 01:26:46.120] All right. [01:26:46.120 --> 01:26:47.120] Let's go to our first caller here. [01:26:47.120 --> 01:26:49.120] We've got Chris Emery in Oklahoma. [01:26:49.120 --> 01:26:50.120] He's a filmmaker. [01:26:50.120 --> 01:26:53.120] He's co-producing the movie A Noble Lie. [01:26:53.120 --> 01:26:54.120] I'm working on the movie with him. [01:26:54.120 --> 01:26:56.120] Chris, thank you for calling in. [01:26:56.120 --> 01:26:57.120] Excellent interview. [01:26:57.120 --> 01:26:59.120] Michelle, Scott, thanks for your work. [01:26:59.120 --> 01:27:06.120] I've been pouring through the book and boy, I tell you, Scott, we could use you as a research assistant on our film. [01:27:06.120 --> 01:27:09.120] He's a good one. [01:27:09.120 --> 01:27:16.120] I just want to give a two-thousand and thank you for what both of you are doing. [01:27:16.120 --> 01:27:17.120] This is amazing. [01:27:17.120 --> 01:27:22.120] 29 years on and with this body of information, people would think it would have fallen through the cracks [01:27:22.120 --> 01:27:25.120] and just been forgotten about in the dusty old box in the corner. [01:27:25.120 --> 01:27:30.120] But you've revived this in a very respectful and professional way. [01:27:30.120 --> 01:27:34.120] And if there's anything we can do to help you guys, I mean, this is not going to go away. [01:27:34.120 --> 01:27:37.120] And it's, you know, case in point, which you're doing. [01:27:37.120 --> 01:27:41.120] We'd love to do whatever we can, our film crew, in the future. [01:27:41.120 --> 01:27:44.120] And I just want to thank you again for what you guys are doing. [01:27:44.120 --> 01:27:48.120] I'm really proud to at least be a part of helping you out. [01:27:48.120 --> 01:27:49.120] Well, thanks, Chris. [01:27:49.120 --> 01:27:53.120] And I'm sure we'll probably take you up on that offer too. [01:27:53.120 --> 01:27:55.120] And you're right. [01:27:55.120 --> 01:28:00.120] I mean, there is so much evidence that is, I was amazed how much is out there. [01:28:00.120 --> 01:28:07.120] I mean, there is some unbelievable evidence that has been sitting there in open daylight even for almost 30 years. [01:28:07.120 --> 01:28:11.120] And there's other evidence that you had to really dig through deep to get to. [01:28:11.120 --> 01:28:14.120] But there's a lot of it showing what really happened. [01:28:14.120 --> 01:28:24.120] But the ones in the daylight, though, Scott, wouldn't you agree that it's only in the daylight once you realize this disgusting side of it? [01:28:24.120 --> 01:28:25.120] I mean, look at me. [01:28:25.120 --> 01:28:29.120] I am emotionally invested in this, you know, watching this happen to my mom. [01:28:29.120 --> 01:28:31.120] Living my life without my mom. [01:28:31.120 --> 01:28:34.120] And not, you know, not knowing anything else. [01:28:34.120 --> 01:28:38.120] I believed this disgusting theory that they have thrown at me. [01:28:38.120 --> 01:28:42.120] I've written papers in college even about, you know, copycats. [01:28:42.120 --> 01:28:47.120] And Johnson and Johnson being the gold standard and how they saved their brand. [01:28:47.120 --> 01:28:50.120] I was duped all these years, all these things. [01:28:50.120 --> 01:28:57.120] And then all of a sudden to come across you and then to see it like the research and all these things to realize, [01:28:57.120 --> 01:29:02.120] wow, you know, all it takes is like just barely picking up that rock, you know, [01:29:02.120 --> 01:29:04.120] just barely picking up that side. [01:29:04.120 --> 01:29:09.120] And then all of a sudden you realize that whole bottom, wow, this whole thing is junk. [01:29:09.120 --> 01:29:10.120] This whole thing is garbage. [01:29:10.120 --> 01:29:12.120] It was so easy to believe that way. [01:29:12.120 --> 01:29:15.120] It was just like, you know, blah, blah, blah, the end. [01:29:15.120 --> 01:29:16.120] You know, that was the way it was. [01:29:16.120 --> 01:29:18.120] And it was very easy. [01:29:18.120 --> 01:29:21.120] And you went along with it for all these years. [01:29:21.120 --> 01:29:26.120] But now when you looked at the facts, it became very quickly very obvious to you what really happened [01:29:26.120 --> 01:29:28.120] and how you've been lied to. [01:29:28.120 --> 01:29:30.120] Yeah, and you know what, Michelle? [01:29:30.120 --> 01:29:31.120] More conversations. [01:29:31.120 --> 01:29:32.120] Yeah. [01:29:32.120 --> 01:29:37.120] Yeah, Michelle, like you said, all it is is just picking up the rock and going, wow, it's like these rogues, [01:29:37.120 --> 01:29:44.120] these ne'er-do-wells, these shysters, they don't even try that hard to cook up a good cover story. [01:29:44.120 --> 01:29:45.120] No. [01:29:45.120 --> 01:29:46.120] It's not even a good lie. [01:29:46.120 --> 01:29:50.120] I mean, it doesn't even seem ridiculous until after you realize it was. [01:29:50.120 --> 01:29:54.120] Then it all looks ridiculous, but it didn't seem ridiculous before. [01:29:54.120 --> 01:29:58.120] It's because of the propaganda psychological media scheme. [01:29:58.120 --> 01:30:25.120] We'll be right back. [01:30:28.120 --> 01:30:54.120] We'll be right back. [01:30:54.120 --> 01:31:21.120] We'll be right back. [01:31:21.120 --> 01:31:49.120] We'll be right back. [01:31:49.120 --> 01:32:15.120] We'll be right back. [01:32:15.120 --> 01:32:41.120] We'll be right back. [01:32:41.120 --> 01:33:07.120] We'll be right back. [01:33:07.120 --> 01:33:29.120] Okay, folks, we are back. [01:33:29.120 --> 01:33:37.120] We've got another half an hour here, approximately, with our very special guest, Scott Bart and Michelle Rosen. [01:33:37.120 --> 01:33:45.120] We're discussing the book and the evidence and the story of the Tylenol mafia, marketing, murder, and Johnson and Johnson. [01:33:45.120 --> 01:33:50.120] And we do want to put out the call for callers to call in at this point in time. [01:33:50.120 --> 01:33:55.120] Please call in 512-646-1984 if you have a question or comment. [01:33:55.120 --> 01:33:59.120] Do you want to say something to the audience about the call, about you wanted to take calls? [01:33:59.120 --> 01:34:00.120] Oh, we'd love. [01:34:00.120 --> 01:34:04.120] We would love to hear what people are thinking, what questions they have about this. [01:34:04.120 --> 01:34:11.120] It's very interesting because, you know, for so many years, you know, this day and this topic [01:34:11.120 --> 01:34:13.120] equaled seven people dropping dead and dying. [01:34:13.120 --> 01:34:14.120] That was it. [01:34:14.120 --> 01:34:21.120] So now it's very exciting to hear that we have more evidence and facts and thousands of facts in the book [01:34:21.120 --> 01:34:25.120] that get this whole thing solved for you. [01:34:25.120 --> 01:34:30.120] And it would just be really neat to see what, like, just general people are thinking and asking about it. [01:34:30.120 --> 01:34:32.120] Because it is very exciting. [01:34:32.120 --> 01:34:33.120] Yeah, absolutely. [01:34:33.120 --> 01:34:36.120] Folks out there, please call in and give us your two cents. [01:34:36.120 --> 01:34:38.120] Is this surprising information to you? [01:34:38.120 --> 01:34:39.120] Are you shocked? [01:34:39.120 --> 01:34:40.120] Are you surprised? [01:34:40.120 --> 01:34:42.120] Are you rolling your eyes like, yeah, yeah, the government did it again. [01:34:42.120 --> 01:34:44.120] They covered it up again. [01:34:44.120 --> 01:34:46.120] I mean, have you heard any of this information before? [01:34:46.120 --> 01:34:47.120] Callers call in. [01:34:47.120 --> 01:34:50.120] You know, if you want to give Michelle condolences. [01:34:50.120 --> 01:34:55.120] Just call in with questions and comments, 512-646-1984. [01:34:55.120 --> 01:34:56.120] All right. [01:34:56.120 --> 01:35:03.120] What I'd like to get to now, Scott, that you mentioned earlier, there was a Tylenol poisoning [01:35:03.120 --> 01:35:06.120] incident in 1986. [01:35:06.120 --> 01:35:10.120] This was four years after the 1982 poisonings. [01:35:10.120 --> 01:35:17.120] And in this 1986 case, there was this resulted in the death of a young woman in Bronxville, New York. [01:35:17.120 --> 01:35:24.120] Okay, so apparently there was a bulldog district attorney who was on the case that got bulldog [01:35:24.120 --> 01:35:27.120] bullied himself into backing off, you know, by the feds. [01:35:27.120 --> 01:35:28.120] The feds had a hand in this. [01:35:28.120 --> 01:35:30.120] It's what it looks like to me. [01:35:30.120 --> 01:35:32.120] What is the issue? [01:35:32.120 --> 01:35:34.120] What's the story with this case? [01:35:34.120 --> 01:35:35.120] How is it conducted differently? [01:35:35.120 --> 01:35:39.120] And tell us the story about this district attorney that tried to do the right thing. [01:35:39.120 --> 01:35:40.120] Okay. [01:35:40.120 --> 01:35:41.120] Yeah. [01:35:41.120 --> 01:35:43.120] Okay, so to set it up a little bit. [01:35:43.120 --> 01:35:50.120] Once they got through the 1982 Tylenol murder case unscathed and Johnson and Johnson quickly restored [01:35:50.120 --> 01:35:56.120] Tylenol market share to its previous high level of around 30 plus percent of the market. [01:35:56.120 --> 01:36:03.120] They continued to marketing Tylenol, but they put a band-aid on the problem because as we've said, [01:36:03.120 --> 01:36:07.120] they put tamper-resistant packaging on the bottle. [01:36:07.120 --> 01:36:12.120] So this is when in 1982, J&J started putting three layers of tamper-resistant seals. [01:36:12.120 --> 01:36:14.120] And that was supposed to protect the public. [01:36:14.120 --> 01:36:16.120] So this would never happen again. [01:36:16.120 --> 01:36:21.120] Of course, the problem was that it happened in the distribution channel before the bottles were, [01:36:21.120 --> 01:36:23.120] before the capsules were bottled anyway. [01:36:23.120 --> 01:36:31.120] And the real problem that could have helped us prevent further poisoning was that they were using these unsealed capsules. [01:36:31.120 --> 01:36:38.120] So it was so easy to open them up or sign it and just dump a bunch in the bottling production line. [01:36:38.120 --> 01:36:42.120] But they didn't fix that. They did the tamper-resistant packaging. [01:36:42.120 --> 01:36:51.120] So in February 1986, there was another Tylenol poisoning in Bronxville, New York. [01:36:51.120 --> 01:36:54.120] And they found one bottle. [01:36:54.120 --> 01:36:57.120] It contained, oh, I can't remember. [01:36:57.120 --> 01:36:59.120] I think it was four sign-adlease capsules. [01:36:59.120 --> 01:37:01.120] One had been taken by the victim. [01:37:01.120 --> 01:37:05.120] But what they found with that bottle is that the tamper-resistant packaging, [01:37:05.120 --> 01:37:09.120] they couldn't find any signs that it had been tampered with. [01:37:09.120 --> 01:37:16.120] And then a few days later, they found two other bottles of contaminated Tylenol that hadn't been opened. [01:37:16.120 --> 01:37:20.120] And again, they could find no evidence that the packaging had been tampered with. [01:37:20.120 --> 01:37:27.120] So it was pretty clear at that point that the tampering or the poison pills had gotten into the bottles [01:37:27.120 --> 01:37:30.120] before they were packaged and shipped to the stores. [01:37:30.120 --> 01:37:34.120] And that was obvious to the district attorney, Carl Vigari. [01:37:34.120 --> 01:37:39.120] So he's our bulldog and kind of heroic figure in this case, [01:37:39.120 --> 01:37:45.120] because he was not just going to accept the statements of the FDA and J&J. [01:37:45.120 --> 01:37:54.120] And in fact, one of the things Carl Vigari exposed early on was this myth of the super corrosiveness of cyanide. [01:37:54.120 --> 01:37:58.120] So right earlier in the investigation, before they found the second bottle, [01:37:58.120 --> 01:38:05.120] as after the first bottle was found, initially immediately officials said [01:38:05.120 --> 01:38:09.120] that the cyanide had to have been put in the capsules recently. [01:38:09.120 --> 01:38:12.120] The tampering had to have occurred at the retail stores, [01:38:12.120 --> 01:38:16.120] because the cyanide would eat through the capsules in 8 to 10 days. [01:38:16.120 --> 01:38:18.120] Well, Carl Vigari didn't believe this was true. [01:38:18.120 --> 01:38:24.120] And the reason he didn't believe it was true is because he'd already seen the analysis done by the FDA [01:38:24.120 --> 01:38:27.120] and the officials all knew this was not true. [01:38:27.120 --> 01:38:35.120] And he was worried that FDA and J&J and FBI were telling people that the capsules would grow very quickly, [01:38:35.120 --> 01:38:39.120] because he was worried that people that maybe bought poison capsules two months ago [01:38:39.120 --> 01:38:43.120] and didn't see any signs of corrosion would think they were okay, [01:38:43.120 --> 01:38:48.120] when in fact what the FDA then finally had to come out and admit a few days later [01:38:48.120 --> 01:38:51.120] was that Carl Vigari was right. [01:38:51.120 --> 01:38:57.120] That this is a dry cyanide or the water content was very low [01:38:57.120 --> 01:39:00.120] and the cyanide would not eat through the capsules. [01:39:00.120 --> 01:39:05.120] The shelf life of these cyanide-like capsules were months or longer, [01:39:05.120 --> 01:39:07.120] and they hid that information. [01:39:07.120 --> 01:39:12.120] So now they had nothing to support this view that the tampering occurred in the retail stores [01:39:12.120 --> 01:39:14.120] and the packaging hadn't been touched. [01:39:14.120 --> 01:39:16.120] No evidence of that. [01:39:16.120 --> 01:39:21.120] And now Carl Vigari was tracking down the repackaging facility, [01:39:21.120 --> 01:39:24.120] and it's clear from public statements he'd made that he was getting close [01:39:24.120 --> 01:39:27.120] to finding where the poisons actually occurred. [01:39:27.120 --> 01:39:32.120] But then the FBI, after first saying they found no evidence of tampering, [01:39:32.120 --> 01:39:35.120] that the packaging had not been tampered with, [01:39:35.120 --> 01:39:42.120] they came out with a public official statement and said that after doing a second more sophisticated analysis, [01:39:42.120 --> 01:39:48.120] we found signs that it's possible that the tampering packaging could have been tampered with, [01:39:48.120 --> 01:39:51.120] but we just couldn't detect it previously. [01:39:51.120 --> 01:39:53.120] And then they put the... [01:39:53.120 --> 01:39:58.120] I mean, Carl Vigari had already announced publicly that this case was still wide open [01:39:58.120 --> 01:40:03.120] and he was going to go out and investigate the James J. Tylenol manufacturing plants. [01:40:03.120 --> 01:40:07.120] All that was put to a stop with the FBI's official statement. [01:40:07.120 --> 01:40:10.120] And that was the end of the investigation. [01:40:10.120 --> 01:40:18.120] Okay, so basically the FBI bullied Carl Vigari into backing down off of the case. [01:40:18.120 --> 01:40:20.120] Yeah, I mean, he had nowhere to go. [01:40:20.120 --> 01:40:22.120] I mean, nobody was going to support his... [01:40:22.120 --> 01:40:24.120] He had no power to get... [01:40:24.120 --> 01:40:25.120] He was in New York. [01:40:25.120 --> 01:40:32.120] He had no power to get the subpoena to investigate repackaging facilities and plants outside of New York. [01:40:32.120 --> 01:40:35.120] But the fascinating thing, the amazing thing what I found, [01:40:35.120 --> 01:40:41.120] and you will see this in the book, is that the Tylenol in one of the signed at least bottles, [01:40:41.120 --> 01:40:43.120] that Tylenol had been shipped... [01:40:43.120 --> 01:40:47.120] It wasn't even manufactured at a McNeil consumer products plant. [01:40:47.120 --> 01:40:54.120] But J&J and the FDA said that Tylenol had been bottled and packaged at the plant and then shipped to the stores, [01:40:54.120 --> 01:41:01.120] when in fact it had been manufactured at a different J&J company and shipped to a contracted packager, [01:41:01.120 --> 01:41:06.120] and that's where the poison pills were dumped once again into the bottling production line, [01:41:06.120 --> 01:41:09.120] bottled, sealed in three layers of tamper-resistant packaging, [01:41:09.120 --> 01:41:12.120] shipped to A&P stores in West Chester County, [01:41:12.120 --> 01:41:17.120] where one of the bottles was purchased that led to the death of Diane Eldroth. [01:41:17.120 --> 01:41:20.120] Okay, and then the FBI issues a statement saying, quote, [01:41:20.120 --> 01:41:27.120] sophisticated scientific techniques, in quote, had revealed that tampering had indeed occurred, [01:41:27.120 --> 01:41:30.120] even though they were triple sealed. [01:41:30.120 --> 01:41:34.120] Right, they never presented any evidence of how this was done. [01:41:34.120 --> 01:41:36.120] They just made a statement. [01:41:36.120 --> 01:41:38.120] There was no... [01:41:38.120 --> 01:41:43.120] The previous statements, the FBI, J&J experts and the FDA had all previously said, [01:41:43.120 --> 01:41:47.120] no, we can find no evidence of any tampering. [01:41:47.120 --> 01:41:54.120] Obviously, the poison pills were in the bottles before they were bottled and packaged and shipped to the stores. [01:41:54.120 --> 01:42:02.120] And this was a much different situation than what happened in 1982 because in the 1986 case, [01:42:02.120 --> 01:42:07.120] the district attorney actually was trying to investigate Johnson & Johnson. [01:42:07.120 --> 01:42:12.120] He was actually looking, following the leads and chasing things down properly. [01:42:12.120 --> 01:42:18.120] And I wanted to read a quote here by West Chester County district attorney, Carl Vigari. [01:42:18.120 --> 01:42:26.120] He said, quote, in any criminal investigation, you don't accept the statements of a witness who has an interest. [01:42:26.120 --> 01:42:32.120] And Johnson & Johnson in this case is certainly not a disinterested party. [01:42:32.120 --> 01:42:33.120] Perfect. [01:42:33.120 --> 01:42:40.120] Yeah, and you give credit to Bruce Bendish, too, who was the head of the West Chester district attorney's office homicide division. [01:42:40.120 --> 01:42:45.120] He was also hot on the trail to investigate the distribution channel. [01:42:45.120 --> 01:42:49.120] But the FDA put kibosh on that. They shut everything down. [01:42:49.120 --> 01:42:52.120] And it just suddenly dropped. [01:42:52.120 --> 01:42:55.120] There was no more stories about that. [01:42:55.120 --> 01:43:00.120] Once the FBI released this official statement, there were never any more stories about the case. [01:43:00.120 --> 01:43:05.120] It was just another lone nut, this time a criminal mastermind madman, [01:43:05.120 --> 01:43:09.120] who had supposedly somehow gotten through these tamper-resistant packaging, [01:43:09.120 --> 01:43:13.120] leaving no signs that they'd been breached. [01:43:13.120 --> 01:43:19.120] It was that. Really what they did in that case was just bizarre and a disgrace. [01:43:19.120 --> 01:43:25.120] And what was further disgraceful is that when the family of Diane Ellsrup, who died in this case, [01:43:25.120 --> 01:43:34.120] brought their liability case against J&J and A&P, the federal judge in that case said, [01:43:34.120 --> 01:43:38.120] he'd been dismissed in summary judgment. [01:43:38.120 --> 01:43:41.120] He'd been dismissed in summary judgment? [01:43:41.120 --> 01:43:44.120] Yes, and never went to trial. [01:43:44.120 --> 01:43:46.120] Oh, goodness. Okay, all right, folks. [01:43:46.120 --> 01:43:50.120] We have one more segment left with Michelle Rosen and Scott Bartz. [01:43:50.120 --> 01:43:52.120] So call in. Please call in. [01:43:52.120 --> 01:43:56.120] And we want to hear the public's take on this situation. [01:43:56.120 --> 01:43:59.120] 512-646-1984. [01:43:59.120 --> 01:44:01.120] Hey, did you hear? [01:44:01.120 --> 01:44:03.120] Ron Paul has announced he's running for president in 2012. [01:44:03.120 --> 01:44:05.120] It is Ron Paul. [01:44:05.120 --> 01:44:07.120] Really? Okay, put down the cell phone for one minute. [01:44:07.120 --> 01:44:10.120] Your friends really don't care about your Twitter updates on what you had for breakfast. [01:44:10.120 --> 01:44:13.120] Oh, but I'd love to make those little smiley faces with punctuation marks. [01:44:13.120 --> 01:44:14.120] Of course you do. [01:44:14.120 --> 01:44:20.120] Now, listen closely. You need to go down to Brave New Books and learn as much as you can about Ron Paul and his message before it's too late. [01:44:20.120 --> 01:44:23.120] They have all of his books and many of the books he talks about. [01:44:23.120 --> 01:44:28.120] They also have t-shirts, bumper stickers, and yard signs so that you can show your support for him during the campaign. [01:44:28.120 --> 01:44:31.120] Brave New Books? Did they have Harry Potter and Twilight? [01:44:31.120 --> 01:44:36.120] No, but they do carry a large selection of survival and preparedness books to protect your family in time of emergency. [01:44:36.120 --> 01:44:39.120] Ugh, that sounds like that show in the Discovery Channel. [01:44:39.120 --> 01:44:46.120] Yeah, there's even a wilderness survival expert that teaches classes called Earth Skills School that you can sign up for on the website BraveNewBookstore.com. [01:44:46.120 --> 01:44:47.120] What are you doing? [01:44:47.120 --> 01:44:53.120] I'm tweeting all my friends that they should go to BraveNewBookstore.com or down to the bookstore in person. Where's it located? [01:44:53.120 --> 01:44:55.120] 1904 Guadalupe Street. [01:44:55.120 --> 01:44:57.120] There, it's sent. I even made a smiley face. [01:44:57.120 --> 01:44:59.120] Great. [01:45:00.120 --> 01:45:03.120] Are you the plaintiff or defendant in a lawsuit? [01:45:03.120 --> 01:45:14.120] Win your case without an attorney with Jurisdictionary, the affordable, easy-to-understand four-CD course that will show you how in 24 hours, step-by-step. [01:45:14.120 --> 01:45:18.120] If you have a lawyer, know what your lawyer should be doing. [01:45:18.120 --> 01:45:22.120] If you don't have a lawyer, know what you should do for yourself. [01:45:22.120 --> 01:45:27.120] Thousands have won with our step-by-step course, and now you can too. [01:45:27.120 --> 01:45:33.120] Jurisdictionary was created by a licensed attorney with 22 years of case-winning experience. [01:45:33.120 --> 01:45:42.120] Even if you're not in a lawsuit, you can learn what everyone should understand about the principles and practices that control our American courts. [01:45:42.120 --> 01:45:51.120] You'll receive our audio classroom, video seminar, tutorials, forms for civil cases, pro se tactics, and much more. [01:45:51.120 --> 01:46:00.120] Please visit ruleoflawradio.com and click on the banner or call toll-free 866-LAW-E-Z. [01:46:00.120 --> 01:46:22.120] Hello. Oh, man, you're in jail. You got busted? Oh, man, I'm broke, dude. [01:46:22.120 --> 01:46:30.120] Some things in this world I will never understand. Some things I realize fully. [01:46:30.120 --> 01:46:39.120] Somebody's on a police, that police man. Somebody's on a police, a police. [01:46:39.120 --> 01:46:48.120] There's always a room at the top of the hill. I hear through the grapevine and it's lonely left to. [01:46:48.120 --> 01:46:56.120] They're wishing it was more than opposition to fail. They know that if they don't do it, somebody will. [01:46:56.120 --> 01:47:04.120] Some things in this world will never understand. Some things I realize fully. [01:47:04.120 --> 01:47:11.120] Somebody's on a police, that police man. Somebody's on a police, a police. [01:47:11.120 --> 01:47:19.120] Okay, folks, somebody is going to police the police man. Somebody is going to bully the bully. [01:47:19.120 --> 01:47:24.120] They are going to foot the bill. We know it. We are going to make them pay for what they have done. [01:47:24.120 --> 01:47:30.120] And we do have a caller on the line. We've got Dan from Connecticut. Dan, thank you for calling in. [01:47:30.120 --> 01:47:33.120] What is your question or comment for Scott and Michelle tonight? [01:47:33.120 --> 01:47:44.120] Well, first and foremost, I would direct your guest to a case that, believe it or not, was pointed out to one of your previous guests by the name of Mark Adams, [01:47:44.120 --> 01:47:50.120] who is one of the few good attorneys. And when it's cold out, he doesn't actually have his hands in his own pockets. [01:47:50.120 --> 01:47:55.120] So I will impart one thing that he has shared with me. [01:47:55.120 --> 01:48:06.120] And that case is called the Bailu vs. United States. And in the Bailu case, this is from 1871, and it involved the Kentucky statute, [01:48:06.120 --> 01:48:15.120] which basically involved a case where an African-American man was trying to present evidence of criminal wrongdoing. [01:48:15.120 --> 01:48:20.120] And it eventually went federal and it got up to the appellate court down there. [01:48:20.120 --> 01:48:30.120] And basically, the appellate court said, well, you know, if you can't present evidence of criminal wrongdoing against yourself, then you're basically a slave. [01:48:30.120 --> 01:48:43.120] And this particular statute that Kentucky had at the time said that Indians and Negroes, as it were, could only make complaints against Indians and Negroes and not anybody else. [01:48:43.120 --> 01:48:52.120] So, you know, it's a longstanding case law that if you have knowledge of criminal activity against yourself or against anybody else, [01:48:52.120 --> 01:48:59.120] that, you know, you can bring it against, you know, to a court of competent jurisdiction. [01:48:59.120 --> 01:49:05.120] The other thing, and after I hang up, I want to hear Randy comment on this, I would direct the guests. [01:49:05.120 --> 01:49:10.120] I mean, granted I got late on this, you know, trying to, you know, get the gist of the whole story here, [01:49:10.120 --> 01:49:18.120] I would also direct your guests toward what's called the Daubert Trilogy, which goes to scientific evidence. [01:49:18.120 --> 01:49:25.120] I mean, I'm not sure if you covered that earlier, but, you know, I kind of get the feeling that that would be quite relevant. [01:49:25.120 --> 01:49:33.120] And otherwise, I was just curious, you know, if you could, or your guests could repeat what state this had actually occurred in. [01:49:33.120 --> 01:49:36.120] This is Illinois. We're talking about the Tylenol murder stand. [01:49:36.120 --> 01:49:42.120] That's what we've been talking about for two hours, and how what happened was that the purpose was that the Johnson, [01:49:42.120 --> 01:49:49.120] some repackaging and distribution facility of Johnson and Johnson, it wasn't the lone nut prancing around from store to store [01:49:49.120 --> 01:49:52.120] that the mainstream media and the government would have us believe. [01:49:52.120 --> 01:49:56.120] So, yeah, we have been talking about the physical evidence all along. [01:49:56.120 --> 01:49:59.120] But thank you so much for the call, Dan, and thank you for that case. [01:49:59.120 --> 01:50:06.120] Dan, this is Eddie. Do me a favor, send me a copy of that 1800s case you're talking about. [01:50:06.120 --> 01:50:09.120] I could use some information out of that if it's still a good law. [01:50:09.120 --> 01:50:12.120] Yeah, still good law. Never been overturned. [01:50:12.120 --> 01:50:14.120] All right. Thank you, Dan. [01:50:14.120 --> 01:50:15.120] Okay. [01:50:15.120 --> 01:50:23.120] Yeah, of course. It's just a daunting task, even if we would consider that to consider going against Johnson and Johnson in a courtroom. [01:50:23.120 --> 01:50:28.120] It's just, it pains me even to think about such a thing. [01:50:28.120 --> 01:50:31.120] How long would that take? [01:50:31.120 --> 01:50:37.120] Okay, folks, if you'd like to call in, if you have any questions or comments for our guests, 512-646-1984. [01:50:37.120 --> 01:50:40.120] We only have about seven minutes left. [01:50:40.120 --> 01:50:47.120] Scott and Michelle, I would also, I'd like to get back to the case a little bit more. [01:50:47.120 --> 01:50:52.120] I wanted to ask you guys, what legal, speaking of Johnson and Johnson and legal maneuverings, [01:50:52.120 --> 01:50:59.120] what legal maneuverings did they undertake and are possibly still undertaking to keep information, [01:50:59.120 --> 01:51:04.120] the real information about the Tylenols, the Tylenol murders, hidden? [01:51:04.120 --> 01:51:12.120] Yeah. I mean, they were pretty consistent in how they handled the 1982 Tylenol murders case and 86 case. [01:51:12.120 --> 01:51:19.120] They got everything sealed up with protective orders and confidentiality agreements in 82. [01:51:19.120 --> 01:51:29.120] They destroyed the capsules in 82 and in 86, again, they took control of the capsules. [01:51:29.120 --> 01:51:35.120] And when the case, when the liability case went to trial, the judge ruled in favor, [01:51:35.120 --> 01:51:43.120] gave them that summary judgment and dismissed the case saying that this wouldn't be right to bring this case to trial, [01:51:43.120 --> 01:51:50.120] even though it's a terrible thing that happened, but would be worse is if a jury were to make the wrong ruling [01:51:50.120 --> 01:51:56.120] and the wrong ruling was to rule in favor of the plaintiffs, in which case the judge had determined [01:51:56.120 --> 01:52:01.120] that he would just dismiss that decision anyway. [01:52:01.120 --> 01:52:06.120] So he wasn't going to allow this case to go before a jury because the judge had already decided [01:52:06.120 --> 01:52:12.120] that he would only accept J&J's theory that the tamperings that occurred in the retail stores [01:52:12.120 --> 01:52:20.120] and that J&J couldn't be liable for the action of a lone madman, yet Carl Vergari and others believed. [01:52:20.120 --> 01:52:25.120] That's not what happened and a jury very well, if they would have had all the evidence, [01:52:25.120 --> 01:52:30.120] they would have come to the conclusion, the obvious conclusion, which is that the tamperings occurred [01:52:30.120 --> 01:52:36.120] in Johnson & Johnson's Tylenol distribution channel and J&J should have been held liable. [01:52:36.120 --> 01:52:39.120] But a jury never even got to hear that evidence. [01:52:39.120 --> 01:52:45.120] Well, and the thing is too, as I've been listening to this, listening to you guys talk and researching this myself, [01:52:45.120 --> 01:52:48.120] it could have even gone back even further. [01:52:48.120 --> 01:52:53.120] I mean, you're talking about at the manufacturing plant, they manufacture the stuff, [01:52:53.120 --> 01:52:58.120] and then they put it in these barrels, these barrel packages, [01:52:58.120 --> 01:53:04.120] and then they ship the barrels of the white powder of the Tylenol, acetaminophen, [01:53:04.120 --> 01:53:10.120] and then they do their repackaging plants where they're put into the capsules [01:53:10.120 --> 01:53:13.120] and then packaged up in the bottles and all this kind of stuff. [01:53:13.120 --> 01:53:18.120] I mean, it could be possible that it was even somebody at the manufacturing plant [01:53:18.120 --> 01:53:22.120] who contaminated a specific lot, a specific barrel. [01:53:22.120 --> 01:53:27.120] I mean, or somebody at the redistribution center, repackaging center, [01:53:27.120 --> 01:53:31.120] I mean, it could have been somebody higher up that when they got the barrels in, [01:53:31.120 --> 01:53:34.120] they happened to open one barrel and throw some cyanide in and mix it up. [01:53:34.120 --> 01:53:40.120] I mean, it's not necessarily the case that somebody down the line of the putting together [01:53:40.120 --> 01:53:45.120] actually opened up individual capsules and put stuff in there and then reclose them back up. [01:53:45.120 --> 01:53:48.120] I mean, it could go all the way back to the manufacturing plant. [01:53:48.120 --> 01:53:49.120] Right. [01:53:49.120 --> 01:53:52.120] And they found these capsules, but what they said, [01:53:52.120 --> 01:53:56.120] no, it couldn't have happened in the channel of distribution of J&J and the FDA [01:53:56.120 --> 01:53:59.120] because the Tylenol was manufactured at two different plants. [01:53:59.120 --> 01:54:02.120] What they didn't tell the public, at least not initially, [01:54:02.120 --> 01:54:08.120] is that all of the Tylenol had been distributed through one J&J regional distribution center [01:54:08.120 --> 01:54:13.120] and that regional distribution center was the same regional distribution center [01:54:13.120 --> 01:54:18.120] that handled the Tylenol that had been shipped to Illinois in 1982. [01:54:18.120 --> 01:54:21.120] So it had come together at the same place. [01:54:21.120 --> 01:54:22.120] Okay. [01:54:22.120 --> 01:54:28.120] So you're saying that the 1986 lot came from the same distribution center as the 1982 lot? [01:54:28.120 --> 01:54:34.120] It was shipped through the same regional distribution center run by Johnson & Johnson. [01:54:34.120 --> 01:54:35.120] Incredible. [01:54:35.120 --> 01:54:36.120] Incredible. [01:54:36.120 --> 01:54:42.120] So it looks to me like it even could have been the same perp in both the 1982 and the 86 case. [01:54:42.120 --> 01:54:49.120] Well, you'll see some very interesting information that there is evidence that the 1986 Tylenol killer [01:54:49.120 --> 01:54:55.120] knew a lot about what was going on with the lot numbers and the expiration dates [01:54:55.120 --> 01:54:57.120] and things like that with the Tylenol in 1982. [01:54:57.120 --> 01:55:05.120] It looks like the 1986 Tylenol killer wanted to leave a message that he knew about this 82 case [01:55:05.120 --> 01:55:08.120] and that he could poison pills in the distribution channel. [01:55:08.120 --> 01:55:12.120] The public never got that message because the press didn't report the facts. [01:55:12.120 --> 01:55:13.120] Amazing. [01:55:13.120 --> 01:55:14.120] All right. [01:55:14.120 --> 01:55:18.120] We only have about three minutes left, so that is some bomb show news right there [01:55:18.120 --> 01:55:20.120] right at the end of the show here. [01:55:20.120 --> 01:55:22.120] That's incredible information. [01:55:22.120 --> 01:55:28.120] Scott, we haven't even had a chance to really plug the website yet or plug how folks can get the book, [01:55:28.120 --> 01:55:32.120] so why don't you give us your website and tell us how folks can get the book? [01:55:32.120 --> 01:55:33.120] Okay, yeah. [01:55:33.120 --> 01:55:39.120] So there's the website AmericanFod.com, and that was just a website to put together to archive a lot of [01:55:39.120 --> 01:55:42.120] different information related to Chicago and the Tylenol murders. [01:55:42.120 --> 01:55:49.120] The book's website is timers.com, or you can get there by going to Tylenolmafia.com, [01:55:49.120 --> 01:55:54.120] and you can buy the book right on that site, or you can click into either of these sites [01:55:54.120 --> 01:55:59.120] and go buy the book at amazon.com as a paperback, as an e-book, [01:55:59.120 --> 01:56:02.120] and you can also buy it on Barnes & Noble as an e-book. [01:56:02.120 --> 01:56:06.120] So it's the Tylenol mafia marketing murder in Johnson & Johnson. [01:56:06.120 --> 01:56:10.120] Yes, and I'm sure that it will be available at Brave New Books shortly. [01:56:10.120 --> 01:56:13.120] I'm going to talk to Harlan about this tomorrow. [01:56:13.120 --> 01:56:17.120] So, folks, please visit Scott's website, and please get the book, [01:56:17.120 --> 01:56:20.120] Support Michelle and Scott, to get this word out, [01:56:20.120 --> 01:56:25.120] because we've got to put an end to the big pharma corporate corruption here. [01:56:25.120 --> 01:56:30.120] Big pharma, big agra, the big banksters that control our courts, [01:56:30.120 --> 01:56:32.120] that control the government, and we've got to put a stop to it. [01:56:32.120 --> 01:56:33.120] We've got to... [01:56:33.120 --> 01:56:37.120] First step is that we've got to wake people up as to what is really going on. [01:56:37.120 --> 01:56:39.120] So we've got about two minutes left. [01:56:39.120 --> 01:56:41.120] Any final comments, Michelle? [01:56:41.120 --> 01:56:46.120] Scott, why don't you tell us what you hope to accomplish out of the release of this book? [01:56:46.120 --> 01:56:48.120] We have the same goal, right, Scott? [01:56:48.120 --> 01:56:49.120] Yeah. [01:56:49.120 --> 01:56:50.120] We've got the same goal. [01:56:50.120 --> 01:56:54.120] And James Burke, the CEO of Johnson & Johnson at the time, [01:56:54.120 --> 01:56:56.120] he's in his early 90s at this point, [01:56:56.120 --> 01:57:01.120] and we are just hoping to relieve and rip away from him and Johnson & Johnson, [01:57:01.120 --> 01:57:05.120] their gold standard of crisis management throughout this entire thing. [01:57:05.120 --> 01:57:07.120] So they've gotten the gold standard. [01:57:07.120 --> 01:57:12.120] It's treated or taught in business schools, colleges all over the country, [01:57:12.120 --> 01:57:17.120] and we'd like to rip that away from them to say that this is not the gold standard of crisis management. [01:57:17.120 --> 01:57:18.120] This is disgusting. [01:57:18.120 --> 01:57:20.120] Thank you. [01:57:20.120 --> 01:57:23.120] Yeah, and unless you consider the gold standard, [01:57:23.120 --> 01:57:25.120] and maybe the peer industry does generally, [01:57:25.120 --> 01:57:30.120] to cover up information, destroy evidence, and let a taxpayer escape. [01:57:30.120 --> 01:57:32.120] And this is relevant right now. [01:57:32.120 --> 01:57:35.120] This case has been reactivated. [01:57:35.120 --> 01:57:39.120] I can't get any information from anyone involved in this case, [01:57:39.120 --> 01:57:44.120] even down to the local level, the Winfield Village police wouldn't turn over evidence, [01:57:44.120 --> 01:57:47.120] Illinois State Police won't, the FBI won't, [01:57:47.120 --> 01:57:52.120] and they're keeping this quiet, and we just want to see the documents. [01:57:52.120 --> 01:57:53.120] I've laid out my bookshare. [01:57:53.120 --> 01:57:55.120] It's there for anyone to see. [01:57:55.120 --> 01:57:58.120] Now, what can't they just give us some documents [01:57:58.120 --> 01:58:00.120] and let us take a look at what they have? [01:58:00.120 --> 01:58:02.120] Yeah, they're never going to do that. [01:58:02.120 --> 01:58:07.120] So what you guys are saying is that the way Johnson & Johnson handled this case [01:58:07.120 --> 01:58:09.120] is considered the gold standard, [01:58:09.120 --> 01:58:14.120] and it's actually taught in business schools and universities? [01:58:14.120 --> 01:58:19.120] It's the number one case to demonstrate the perfect way to handle a crisis. [01:58:19.120 --> 01:58:21.120] This is an atrocity. [01:58:21.120 --> 01:58:23.120] All right, we've got to put a stop to this. [01:58:23.120 --> 01:58:24.120] All right, we're at the end of the show. [01:58:24.120 --> 01:58:29.120] Scott, Michelle, thank you so much for spending your time with us tonight. [01:58:29.120 --> 01:58:31.120] Thanks for having us, Deborah. [01:58:31.120 --> 01:58:32.120] It was awesome. [01:58:32.120 --> 01:58:36.120] All right, folks, this has been the Rule of Law, ruleoflawradio.com. [01:58:36.120 --> 01:58:37.120] You can get this archive. [01:58:37.120 --> 01:58:40.120] It'll be posted later this evening on ruleoflawradio.com. [01:58:40.120 --> 01:58:42.120] This is Deborah Stevens. [01:58:42.120 --> 01:59:07.120] This is Deborah Stevens. [01:59:07.120 --> 01:59:14.120] The New Testament Recovery Version has over 9,000 footnotes that explain what the Bible says verse by verse, [01:59:14.120 --> 01:59:18.120] helping you to know God and to know the meaning of life. [01:59:18.120 --> 01:59:21.120] Order your free copy today from Bibles for America. [01:59:21.120 --> 01:59:30.120] Call us toll-free at 888-551-0102 or visit us online at bfa.org. [01:59:30.120 --> 01:59:32.120] This translation is highly accurate, [01:59:32.120 --> 01:59:37.120] and it comes with over 13,000 cross-references, plus charts and maps [01:59:37.120 --> 01:59:39.120] and an outline for every book of the Bible. [01:59:39.120 --> 01:59:42.120] This is truly a Bible you can understand. [01:59:42.120 --> 01:59:50.120] To get your free copy of the New Testament Recovery Version, call us toll-free at 888-551-0102. [01:59:50.120 --> 02:00:03.120] That's 888-551-0102 or visit us online at bfa.org.